This subject is Taboo

[Drew Harper]

Had a call from a sailmaker last night about the SF NOODS. He asked about an interpretation of the 'pro' rule and asked if it was being enforced. I told him we don't care in the West but he argued that we should enforce the rules, always and fairly. Evidently he was offered some 'pay' to come sail in the regatta.

The key issue remains sailmakers, though clearly Garett and I qualify as Cat 3's. I guess it can be argued that I technically do and argued that I technically don't own the boat I'm sailing....depends on who you're arguing with.

He's a sailmaker, would be sailing on a boat with his sails and certainly doesn't own 100%

I thought Lee and Brad both owned Jackpot? How about Ched sailing a charter boat at the NA's with Norths on them?  Farley in Texas works for Q, but he does own 100% of his boat, I believe.

What's your take on all this?

Have We ever HAD a division P event?

10.2 No helmsperson or crew member may be "paid" to sail in any race aboard a Viper, unless the Class Executive Committee has designated an event as a "Division P" event.

10.3 Division P (Professional) Events. In a designated Division P regatta, the helmsperson and/or any member of the crew may be paid to sail, and the helmsperson and/or crew may include ISAF Category 3 sailors. A regatta may only be designated a Division P regatta by the Executive Committee.

10.4 Division A (Amateur) Events. In a designated Division A regatta, the helmsperson must either be an ISAF Category 1 sailor or a bona fide 100% owner of the boat. A representative of a Class approved sail maker may not helm or crew on a boat using a sail manufactured by that sail maker in a Division A regatta unless that representative is determined by the Class Executive Committee to personally own 100% of the boat. A regatta may only be designated a Division A regatta by the Executive Committee.

[Tim Carter]

I got involved in this also...

10.2 No one paid to sail, Except in Cat P events (None have happened to date)

In a Cat A event, sailmaker reps cannot use their own product (None have happened to date)

What I think people are missing here is that the regattas do not default to either "A" or "P".

There are really 3 types of regattas, A or P, which will be chosen and designated by the exec committe, and then the other type, the ones we have all been sailing in for the last 6 yrs..  everybody sails, and uses what ever sails they like.  No Pay..

[Justin Scott]

The basic rule is incredibly simple. Nobody on the boat can be paid to race in a Viper.

The base rule does not say anything about whether anyone is a pro sailor or not a pro sailor.
The sailors can be pro, amateur or from Mars but as long as they are not paid, they can sail.
No owner should be paying any of their crew to race with them.

It is really important that we preserve this rule, and you should enforce this in the West.

 

[Justin Scott]

Brad?
I am pretty sure that Brad could be selling a lot more sails at a lot higher margins if he spent half the time that he spends in a Viper acting as tactician etc on Melgae or J boats.  The simple fact is that Brad loves racing the Viper, and if he can justify the time he devotes to our class by showing his wares then we are the richer for it.  BUT Brad doesnt get paid a dime from any sailor to show up at a Viper regatta. I bet he pins a check on the fridge when he comes home from a Melges regatta. You would think that Brad would just want boats with his sails to go fast, but I cannot tell you how many times I have seen Brad quietly stand by a mid fleet boat owner with another brand sail and give a few pointers.

Remember, these are not DIV A regattas, so boat ownership is irrelevant. A sailmaker can sail. You just cannot slip him a few bucks.

So I hope your friend turned down the "pay"......and offered to come for fun.  

[Drew Harper]

Well, the guy Timbo and I talked to was going to get paid. I think others have been paid...maybe it's to drive the boat someplace...paid well for practice, etc.

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.

I think Brad should be able to sail no matter what. He's a HELL of a nice guy, shares his substantial knowledge and is a real value to the class. Same goes for all the sailmakers. They don't make sh** in this biz. They might as well make a couple of bucks with the owners.

[Kelly Bechard]

I have to admit I never liked this rule to begin with because its unenforceable but I'm surprised that no one else has a problem with it. I'm probably never going to get paid to sail or have a desire to pay someone to sail but pro's get paid to sail, that's how it works, it's their job. So one of two things is going to happen: either the pros will stop sailing the viper and we will lose a lot of the fleet momentum OR owners will pay their pros and no one will ever know.  Like Drew said they may get paid to practice, get paid double for an event on the owners big boat or paid to bring the owner coffee in the morning most will still get paid.

If we are going to keep the rule are we going to start asking for bank statements, tax returns, watching how much money everyone spends? There is truly no way for this rule to work and it hurts the people who plays by the rules. Personally I'd like to see the rule go away and sail against whoever wants to show up however they show up and sail against the best.

[David Furna]

Paid-compensated-expenses covered, define paid?
This subject has been brought up a lot, what's the difference in $500-$1000 cash a day or plane tickets, hotel, meals and drinks? Your family can use my Condo? So many ways around the "rule". It happens, in other classes too. Not a problem for me.....my guys sail for Rum!

[Matt Rowlinson]

The basic rule is incredibly simple. Nobody on the boat can be paid to race in a Viper.

The base rule does not say anything about whether anyone is a pro sailor or not a pro sailor.
The sailors can be pro, amateur or from Mars but as long as they are not paid, they can sail.
No owner should be paying any of their crew to race with them.

It is really important that we preserve this rule, and you should enforce this in the West.

 

Plus 1 on this.  Sure the rule doesn't have any enforcement mechanism, and sure you can argue all night about what constitutes "pay."  But the rule is there, and anyone who breaks it to win a pickle dish will know that really they didn't win anything at all--and, sooner or later, the rest of the fleet will know it too.  Stuff gets out.  If you want to see what Viper racing could turn into without the rule, take a look at the pay-to-play nightmare that is the Melges 20.

[Justin Scott]

Paid-compensated-expenses covered, define paid?

Pay or Paid is defined in ISAF 22.1

"Pay and its derivatives means:
the receipt by a sailor of; or the acceptance by a sailor of an offer to him to give money, money's worth,
remuneration, fees, grants, gratuities, any financial benefit whether arising directly or indirectly or compensation in any form whether received by him or an associate, but not including Personal Expenses."

For those who want to delve into the detail there is a good body of ISAF material which covers most eventualities. Importantly,covering expenses at the regatta is not considered "pay". You can buy your crew all the rum they need, give them a hell of a good time, and if the only way that crew will tolerate sailing with my sorry @$$ is to put them up in the Ritz carlton then that is allowed. You can say thank you with shirts and gloves and hats .......  BUT they cannot take a dime of cash home with them  

[Justin Scott]

one of two things is going to happen: either the pros will stop sailing the viper and we will lose a lot of the fleet momentum OR owners will pay their pros and no one will ever know. 

Kelly, on this one thing, I really disagree.
You underestimate the proffesional pride and the integrity of those who sail for a living. The good pros, the ones who ply their craft as professional racers value their reputations.

Breaking this rule would require both the owner and the pro to cheat. The consequences for the genuine pro are simply not worth it. For sailing in a lousy Viper regatta for a couple of days, would a good pro risk a black mark on his or her career??  There are plenty of pros who have chosen to sail unpaid in the Viper and they would figure it out if one of their bretheren was cheating.  It would be a clear breach of rule 69.1 and the pro could easily be out of action  for a year or more. Any pro prepared to cheat blatantly is probably not worth having on the boat. Any pro prepared to cheat is probably no fun on a boat. 

[Matt Sole]

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.

Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.

Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.

As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.

[Jeff Jones]

Before the 2010 Melges Worlds i thought amature awards and identifying boat's with PRO's on them using a dot on the sail was hokey.   But reflecting on the event, i'd support it.

Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors. 

If someone provides a PRO with an "all expense vacation in Marblehead" - i feel they should sail with that onus as opposed to Bob and the two knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him.   Because all anyone remembers two years later is that Joe beat Bob when in reality Joe's not really a better sailor.   

It's obvious that this class is evolving and the landscape is getting a lot more competitive.  How long will it be before Bob and his buddies decide to stay home instead of getting beat by a bunch of infeiror sailors who have the means to buy..  i mean rent silver?


   

 

[Matt Sole]

Before the 2010 Melges Worlds i thought amature awards and identifying boat's with PRO's on them using a dot on the sail was hokey.   But reflecting on the event, i'd support it.

Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors. 

If someone provides a PRO with an "all expense vacation in Marblehead" - i feel they should sail with that onus as opposed to Bob and the two knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him.   Because all anyone remembers two years later is that Joe beat Bob when in reality Joe's not really a better sailor.   

It's obvious that this class is evolving and the landscape is getting a lot more competitive.  How long will it be before Bob and his buddies decide to stay home instead of getting beat by a bunch of infeiror sailors who have the means to buy..  i mean rent silver?


   

 

Remember that Cat 3 is very encompassing and there are a lot of people who get lumped in to that catagory who are not necessarily  Cat 3 for their tactical ability.

[Drew Harper]

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.

Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.

Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.

As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.

Matt...you can beat Ainsley on a Viper...he's got an AWESOME crew on the AC45 and is getting his butt handed to him.

Hope nobodies getting wrankled at this conversation. It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules. He was uncomfortable with the 'grey' areas and suggested that we might look at that. I told him, in the West, we'll probably never care. I suspect it won't matter much in the Gulf either.

Like I said, the more the merrier.

[Jeff Jones]

Unless the person in question was a bottom 10% boat, brought the PRO on to help them learn and it was an isolated situation - this would absolutly not fly in the gulf.  At least in Texas. 

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.

Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.

Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.

As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.

Matt...you can beat Ainsley on a Viper...he's got an AWESOME crew on the AC45 and is getting his butt handed to him.

Hope nobodies getting wrankled at this conversation. It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules. He was uncomfortable with the 'grey' areas and suggested that we might look at that. I told him, in the West, we'll probably never care. I suspect it won't matter much in the Gulf either.

Like I said, the more the merrier.