Had a call from a sailmaker last night about the SF NOODS. He asked about an interpretation of the 'pro' rule and asked if it was being enforced. I told him we don't care in the West but he argued that we should enforce the rules, always and fairly. Evidently he was offered some 'pay' to come sail in the regatta.
The key issue remains sailmakers, though clearly Garett and I qualify as Cat 3's. I guess it can be argued that I technically do and argued that I technically don't own the boat I'm sailing....depends on who you're arguing with.
He's a sailmaker, would be sailing on a boat with his sails and certainly doesn't own 100%
I thought Lee and Brad both owned Jackpot? How about Ched sailing a charter boat at the NA's with Norths on them? Farley in Texas works for Q, but he does own 100% of his boat, I believe.
What's your take on all this?
Have We ever HAD a division P event?
10.2 No helmsperson or crew member may be "paid" to sail in any race aboard a Viper, unless the Class Executive Committee has designated an event as a "Division P" event.
10.3 Division P (Professional) Events. In a designated Division P regatta, the helmsperson and/or any member of the crew may be paid to sail, and the helmsperson and/or crew may include ISAF Category 3 sailors. A regatta may only be designated a Division P regatta by the Executive Committee.
10.4 Division A (Amateur) Events. In a designated Division A regatta, the helmsperson must either be an ISAF Category 1 sailor or a bona fide 100% owner of the boat. A representative of a Class approved sail maker may not helm or crew on a boat using a sail manufactured by that sail maker in a Division A regatta unless that representative is determined by the Class Executive Committee to personally own 100% of the boat. A regatta may only be designated a Division A regatta by the Executive Committee.
I got involved in this also...
10.2 No one paid to sail, Except in Cat P events (None have happened to date)
In a Cat A event, sailmaker reps cannot use their own product (None have happened to date)
What I think people are missing here is that the regattas do not default to either "A" or "P".
There are really 3 types of regattas, A or P, which will be chosen and designated by the exec committe, and then the other type, the ones we have all been sailing in for the last 6 yrs.. everybody sails, and uses what ever sails they like. No Pay..
The basic rule is incredibly simple. Nobody on the boat can be paid to race in a Viper.
The base rule does not say anything about whether anyone is a pro sailor or not a pro sailor.
The sailors can be pro, amateur or from Mars but as long as they are not paid, they can sail.
No owner should be paying any of their crew to race with them.
It is really important that we preserve this rule, and you should enforce this in the West.
Brad?
I am pretty sure that Brad could be selling a lot more sails at a lot higher margins if he spent half the time that he spends in a Viper acting as tactician etc on Melgae or J boats. The simple fact is that Brad loves racing the Viper, and if he can justify the time he devotes to our class by showing his wares then we are the richer for it. BUT Brad doesnt get paid a dime from any sailor to show up at a Viper regatta. I bet he pins a check on the fridge when he comes home from a Melges regatta. You would think that Brad would just want boats with his sails to go fast, but I cannot tell you how many times I have seen Brad quietly stand by a mid fleet boat owner with another brand sail and give a few pointers.
Remember, these are not DIV A regattas, so boat ownership is irrelevant. A sailmaker can sail. You just cannot slip him a few bucks.
So I hope your friend turned down the "pay"......and offered to come for fun.
Well, the guy Timbo and I talked to was going to get paid. I think others have been paid...maybe it's to drive the boat someplace...paid well for practice, etc.
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.
I think Brad should be able to sail no matter what. He's a HELL of a nice guy, shares his substantial knowledge and is a real value to the class. Same goes for all the sailmakers. They don't make sh** in this biz. They might as well make a couple of bucks with the owners.
I have to admit I never liked this rule to begin with because its unenforceable but I'm surprised that no one else has a problem with it. I'm probably never going to get paid to sail or have a desire to pay someone to sail but pro's get paid to sail, that's how it works, it's their job. So one of two things is going to happen: either the pros will stop sailing the viper and we will lose a lot of the fleet momentum OR owners will pay their pros and no one will ever know. Like Drew said they may get paid to practice, get paid double for an event on the owners big boat or paid to bring the owner coffee in the morning most will still get paid.
If we are going to keep the rule are we going to start asking for bank statements, tax returns, watching how much money everyone spends? There is truly no way for this rule to work and it hurts the people who plays by the rules. Personally I'd like to see the rule go away and sail against whoever wants to show up however they show up and sail against the best.
Paid-compensated-expenses covered, define paid?
This subject has been brought up a lot, what's the difference in $500-$1000 cash a day or plane tickets, hotel, meals and drinks? Your family can use my Condo? So many ways around the "rule". It happens, in other classes too. Not a problem for me.....my guys sail for Rum!
Quote from: Justin Scott on September 20, 2012, 04:24:21 PM
The basic rule is incredibly simple. Nobody on the boat can be paid to race in a Viper.
The base rule does not say anything about whether anyone is a pro sailor or not a pro sailor.
The sailors can be pro, amateur or from Mars but as long as they are not paid, they can sail.
No owner should be paying any of their crew to race with them.
It is really important that we preserve this rule, and you should enforce this in the West.
Plus 1 on this. Sure the rule doesn't have any enforcement mechanism, and sure you can argue all night about what constitutes "pay." But the rule is there, and anyone who breaks it to win a pickle dish will know that really they didn't win anything at all--and, sooner or later, the rest of the fleet will know it too. Stuff gets out. If you want to see what Viper racing could turn into without the rule, take a look at the pay-to-play nightmare that is the Melges 20.
Quote from: David Furna on September 20, 2012, 09:16:20 PM
Paid-compensated-expenses covered, define paid?
Pay or Paid is defined in ISAF 22.1
"Pay and its derivatives means:
the receipt by a sailor of; or the acceptance by a sailor of an offer to him to give money, money's worth,
remuneration, fees, grants, gratuities, any financial benefit whether arising directly or indirectly or compensation in any form whether received by him or an associate, but not including Personal Expenses."
For those who want to delve into the detail there is a good body of ISAF material which covers most eventualities. Importantly,covering expenses at the regatta is not considered "pay". You can buy your crew all the rum they need, give them a hell of a good time, and if the only way that crew will tolerate sailing with my sorry @$$ is to put them up in the Ritz carlton then that is allowed. You can say thank you with shirts and gloves and hats ....... BUT they cannot take a dime of cash home with them
Quote from: Kelly Bechard on September 20, 2012, 09:14:00 PM
one of two things is going to happen: either the pros will stop sailing the viper and we will lose a lot of the fleet momentum OR owners will pay their pros and no one will ever know.
Kelly, on this one thing, I really disagree.
You underestimate the proffesional pride and the integrity of those who sail for a living. The good pros, the ones who ply their craft as professional racers value their reputations.
Breaking this rule would require both the owner and the pro to cheat. The consequences for the genuine pro are simply not worth it. For sailing in a lousy Viper regatta for a couple of days, would a good pro risk a black mark on his or her career?? There are plenty of pros who have chosen to sail unpaid in the Viper and they would figure it out if one of their bretheren was cheating. It would be a clear breach of rule 69.1 and the pro could easily be out of action for a year or more. Any pro prepared to cheat blatantly is probably not worth having on the boat. Any pro prepared to cheat is probably no fun on a boat.
Quote from: Drew Harper on September 20, 2012, 08:40:49 PM
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.
Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.
Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.
As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.
Before the 2010 Melges Worlds i thought amature awards and identifying boat's with PRO's on them using a dot on the sail was hokey. But reflecting on the event, i'd support it.
Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors.
If someone provides a PRO with an "all expense vacation in Marblehead" - i feel they should sail with that onus as opposed to Bob and the two knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him. Because all anyone remembers two years later is that Joe beat Bob when in reality Joe's not really a better sailor.
It's obvious that this class is evolving and the landscape is getting a lot more competitive. How long will it be before Bob and his buddies decide to stay home instead of getting beat by a bunch of infeiror sailors who have the means to buy.. i mean rent silver?
Quote from: Jeff Jones on September 21, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Before the 2010 Melges Worlds i thought amature awards and identifying boat's with PRO's on them using a dot on the sail was hokey. But reflecting on the event, i'd support it.
Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors.
If someone provides a PRO with an "all expense vacation in Marblehead" - i feel they should sail with that onus as opposed to Bob and the two knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him. Because all anyone remembers two years later is that Joe beat Bob when in reality Joe's not really a better sailor.
It's obvious that this class is evolving and the landscape is getting a lot more competitive. How long will it be before Bob and his buddies decide to stay home instead of getting beat by a bunch of infeiror sailors who have the means to buy.. i mean rent silver?
Remember that Cat 3 is very encompassing and there are a lot of people who get lumped in to that catagory who are not necessarily Cat 3 for their tactical ability.
Quote from: Matt Sole on September 21, 2012, 05:13:02 AM
Quote from: Drew Harper on September 20, 2012, 08:40:49 PM
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.
Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.
Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.
As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.
Matt...you can beat Ainsley on a Viper...he's got an AWESOME crew on the AC45 and is getting his butt handed to him.
Hope nobodies getting wrankled at this conversation. It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules. He was uncomfortable with the 'grey' areas and suggested that we might look at that. I told him, in the West, we'll probably never care. I suspect it won't matter much in the Gulf either.
Like I said, the more the merrier.
Unless the person in question was a bottom 10% boat, brought the PRO on to help them learn and it was an isolated situation - this would absolutly not fly in the gulf. At least in Texas.
Quote from: Drew Harper on September 21, 2012, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: Matt Sole on September 21, 2012, 05:13:02 AM
Quote from: Drew Harper on September 20, 2012, 08:40:49 PM
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.
Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.
Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.
As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.
Matt...you can beat Ainsley on a Viper...he's got an AWESOME crew on the AC45 and is getting his butt handed to him.
Hope nobodies getting wrankled at this conversation. It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules. He was uncomfortable with the 'grey' areas and suggested that we might look at that. I told him, in the West, we'll probably never care. I suspect it won't matter much in the Gulf either.
Like I said, the more the merrier.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on September 21, 2012, 12:11:40 PM
Unless the person in question was a bottom 10% boat, brought the PRO on to help them learn and it was an isolated situation - this would absolutly not fly in the gulf. At least in Texas.
Quote from: Drew Harper on September 21, 2012, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: Matt Sole on September 21, 2012, 05:13:02 AM
Quote from: Drew Harper on September 20, 2012, 08:40:49 PM
Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.
Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.
Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.
As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.
Matt...you can beat Ainsley on a Viper...he's got an AWESOME crew on the AC45 and is getting his butt handed to him.
Hope nobodies getting wrankled at this conversation. It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules. He was uncomfortable with the 'grey' areas and suggested that we might look at that. I told him, in the West, we'll probably never care. I suspect it won't matter much in the Gulf either.
Like I said, the more the merrier.
Ooopps....
Not wrankled, I just quite like the rule. It has good spirit. Which this class is about.
I do believe that we do need to have a uniformed approach to suspected violators. Its a tough subject to master. The ISAF has shown that after dealing with it for 25 years they are still not very good at it. So how should a group that has been working on it a couple of years able to perfect it.
The whole situation is very grey as it is very difficult to prove if a crew member is being paid so a black and white rule would not work. A grey rule for a grey problem.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on September 21, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors.
This isn't too hard to do. At minimum looking at the top 10, the following teams were all amateurs:
2nd
4th
7th
8th
9th (I think)
10th
Of the remaining 4 teams, 3 of the 4 were still majority amateur. So this isn't as overrun as some people think, though it's a true statement that the level of competition in the class has been raised -- that is in part due to the fact that we have some great sailors in the class sharing "secrets" on how to make the boat go (some professional, most not, all who just want to be helpful and raise the bar), more Viper regattas, more people practicing, reading tuning guides, forum posts for miscellaneous tips and a certain number of years that have elapsed so that there's just more information out there and more time in the boat for all), and the fact that as the class grows, there are some better sailors who are attracted to the boat because it's a fun boat to sail and the larger fleets have appeal.
Despite all that, anyone in the fleet is still more than willing to help out anyone else in the fleet (particularly if they're in the bottom half of the standings) and make everyone feel welcome. It's a good situation -- if you want to improve in the Viper, you don't necessarily have to find a pro -- most don't. The better answer is "just sail your Viper more, preferably against other Viper sailors."
via Jeff Jone: "knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him"
Whats JJ got against us knuckleheads?
I personally love the competition and knowing who and what caliber of sailors were are competing against. It makes us "knuckleheads" motivate to try harder and learn all we can. #100 travels as much as we can so we can compete against the most competitive and biggest fleets ... because we will learn, have fun and be better sailors.
And as for the boats Peter mentioned as being amateurs ... which a little research it looks like those amateurs have some pretty impressive sailing credentials that they should be proud of and makes me proud to be competitive against (well, sometimes competitive against ... but always FUN!)
As for the rule ... even though gray ... it is a good rule and well, if some choose to break or stretch the rule ... they know who they are and they are the ones that have to look at themselves in the mirror.
D of the #100
Quote from: Drew Harper on September 21, 2012, 11:36:11 AM
It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules.
Sounds like he would fit right in with the Gulf Coast and the East Coast viper sailors. Tell him , he's a good man.
That's pretty cool.
Quote from: Peter Beardsley on September 21, 2012, 02:31:24 PM
Quote from: Jeff Jones on September 21, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors.
This isn't too hard to do. At minimum looking at the top 10, the following teams were all amateurs:
2nd
4th
7th
8th
9th (I think)
10th
Of the remaining 4 teams, 3 of the 4 were still majority amateur. So this isn't as overrun as some people think, though it's a true statement that the level of competition in the class has been raised -- that is in part due to the fact that we have some great sailors in the class sharing "secrets" on how to make the boat go (some professional, most not, all who just want to be helpful and raise the bar), more Viper regattas, more people practicing, reading tuning guides, forum posts for miscellaneous tips and a certain number of years that have elapsed so that there's just more information out there and more time in the boat for all), and the fact that as the class grows, there are some better sailors who are attracted to the boat because it's a fun boat to sail and the larger fleets have appeal.
Despite all that, anyone in the fleet is still more than willing to help out anyone else in the fleet (particularly if they're in the bottom half of the standings) and make everyone feel welcome. It's a good situation -- if you want to improve in the Viper, you don't necessarily have to find a pro -- most don't. The better answer is "just sail your Viper more, preferably against other Viper sailors."
Nothing, i am king of the knuckleheads... but you've always given me a run for my money.
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on September 21, 2012, 02:36:08 PM
via Jeff Jone: "knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him"
Whats JJ got against us knuckleheads?
Quote from: Peter Beardsley on September 21, 2012, 02:31:24 PM
Quote from: Jeff Jones on September 21, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors.
This isn't too hard to do. At minimum looking at the top 10, the following teams were all amateurs:
2nd
4th
7th
8th
9th (I think)
10th
Of the remaining 4 teams, 3 of the 4 were still majority amateur.
And its worth looking through those remaining in a little more detail.
Position # 6 I dont think anyone could accuse Jason Carroll of taking things too seriously . His crew included someone who makes his living from managing sailboats. The crewalso included his girlfriend and her friend as crew members 3 and 4, sailing four up. Bikini tops and hiking pants set the tone on that boat. They rocked into town on Jasons's Gunboat, stayed up late at Maddies each night with the gfs and invited Viperers out to the Gunboat when Maddies closed . The pro treated sailing on the Viper as a vacation. I dont call that getting paid . I call that "living the life, man"
Position #5.
Jeremy Willmot called the week before the regatta to ask if anyone was looking for crew. Mambo Kings were missing a third for Thursday and Friday so he sailed two days with us and helped a bunch of people tune in the parking lot. His viewpoint is that it is a completely different feeling to be sailing in a regatta with no paid crew. First, for the pro there is not the pressure of having to justify the paycheck - if you are there on your own dime, you are just there to have fun. But most noticeable is the sharing. It would be unacceptable for a pro whose paid job is to help his owner win races to go around sharing go-fast advice.
On the third day when we were an all-amateur crew and not distracted by sailing alongside other boats in the pre-start so that Jeremy could tell them to "use more leech tension", "hoist the main higher", or "take the jib top batten out" we had our best results of the regatta. Admitedly, benefitting from the learning curve of the previous 2 days. It was a privilege. Jeremy loves the Viper, and he would like to own one himself some day. The only way he could do this is if we keep the no-paid -to -sail rule. In the paid-to-sail classes, he has to earn a living and not sail his own boat. In the meantime, he has some exciting news, which he will be announcing in due course. "Go the Troll".
Position # 3
I dont want to put words into their mouths but I dont think the "Jackpot" program would exist in its current form if it were not for the no-paid-to-sail rule.
I believe that Lee bought the boat in this class because it was a great ride and because here was an opportunity for three long time friends and extraordinary sailors to sail together in an affordable way. I dont know how much Brad is worth as tactician on Melges and Etchells , or how much Lee is worth for bow gigs but I doubt that either of them could afford each other. They have had to miss some Viper regattas because of customer gigs. But when Brad, Eric and Lee are on the Viper, there are no customers, just three friends sailing together. Jackpot has become part of the heart, soul and urban legend of the Viper class, complete with cooler and deck chairs. I can't imagine this class without them.
If we had M20 rules with Cat 1 drivers and paid crew..... we would be without them.
Please dont read anything into my lack of insight into Blixem. I didnt get to hang out with them this weekend. I heard that Piet asked his crew who wanted to come and sail with him in the Viper for a few days. He bought it as a practice boat and he is loving it more than his grand prix machine. Clearly, incredibly good sailors....but 20 Viper "knucklehead" teams got to sail past them on race 3 . In the Viper, even the #2 ranked Laser sailor in team GBR's olympic squad can be devoured by the Peloton .
Quote from: Justin Scott on September 21, 2012, 05:05:19 PM
Jeremy Willmot called the week before the regatta to ask if anyone was looking for crew. . . In the meantime, he has some exciting news, which he will be announcing in due course. "Go the Troll".
But here's a clue. DJ Troll (aka Willmot) has been living in the US since college at St Marys, qualifies as US citizen. It involves 5 circles and dedicating himself to a dream for 4 years. Hope it happens and hope the Viper fleet gets behind him on this. You read it here first!
Sorry for the diversion. Back to your normal programming.
Drew, I dont think you need to apologize for raising the subject. Its good to air this stuff, and I think the feedback and support for the rule is a good thing to hear.
I support the rule of nobody being paid to sail on a Viper, if an owner is willing to cover regatta expenses for his crew that's his own decision, but doesn't give him an unfair advantage on the racecourse. This type of payment is also too difficult to enforce, show me your receipts, yeah right! Pros are finding creative ways to make money off the Viper class, ie putting together solid "unpaid" crews to place well in regattas to promote their sails, gear, expertise, etc. I'm sure Brad and Farley have done well for themselves selling sails despite not being paid or paying anyone to sail on their boats. I think the corinthian spirit is more relevant to the growth of the viper class and it should stay that way. This is what has widened the gap between the Viper and Melges fleets. If you want to have an arms race then go sail a Melges.
This is a tough one. For me it's all about sailing with my friends, competing, becoming a better sailor, and getting away from work! Having said that I do believe pros sail in the class, how are they paid? I don't know but I don't think they are showing up just because they felt like sailing another weekend. I do think it can have a effect on the bottom half of the class that just don't see themselves as ever being able to compete, and that would be bad. The class needs to try to keep and eye on this and support the true amature sailor. Give them some recognition for finishing close to some of these very generous with their time pro sailors.
Anyway, just my opinion and we all know what thats worth. I'll be in the grove in Feb hope we get some boats to play with.
Quote from: Lee Eikel on September 25, 2012, 03:55:46 PM
"very generous with their time pro sailors."
nice way to put it Lee, future in Politics? See ya in the Grove
This is a tough one. For me it's all about sailing with my friends, competing, becoming a better sailor, and getting away from work! Having said that I do believe pros sail in the class, how are they paid? I don't know but I don't think they are showing up just because they felt like sailing another weekend. I do think it can have a effect on the bottom half of the class that just don't see themselves as ever being able to compete, and that would be bad. The class needs to try to keep and eye on this and support the true amature sailor. Give them some recognition for finishing close to some of these very generous with their time pro sailors.
Anyway, just my opinion and we all know what thats worth. I'll be in the grove in Feb hope we get some boats to play with.
No politics for me. To many skeletons in my closet for that!! Or is that empty Rum bottles?
I am finally catching up on some things. Finally got a day off.
I have to air Jackpots dirty laundry. Brad and I teamed up to own and run Jackpot because it is such a great boat. Eric and I raced raced against brad for years on the ultimate 20s and cursed his name for most of it. i.e. we were beating brad in a major regatta down in Lake Norman and in the final race we broke our rig and Brad sailed to Victory, we blamed him for filing down our turnbuckles. But we always had a great time when we hit the dock so we teamed up on the Viper and it's been great.
To get to the point Eric and I aren't Pros. Never been paid to sail. Brad is a pro but has never been paid
To sail a Viper. He has actually kept Jackpot afloat. I was laid off for two years and he paid all of the bills for awhile to keep the boat rolling. So if anyone has a story of a Pro paying all the bills and travel expenses for the amateurs to get to regattas let me know. It's all for the fun and enjoyment of sailing this boat.
Quote from: Lee Shuckerow on December 23, 2012, 08:03:33 PM
I am finally catching up on some things. Finally got a day off.
I have to air Jackpots dirty laundry. Brad and I teamed up to own and run Jackpot because it is such a great boat. Eric and I raced raced against brad for years on the ultimate 20s and cursed his name for most of it. i.e. we were beating brad in a major regatta down in Lake Norman and in the final race we broke our rig and Brad sailed to Victory, we blamed him for filing down our turnbuckles. But we always had a great time when we hit the dock so we teamed up on the Viper and it's been great.
To get to the point Eric and I aren't Pros. Never been paid to sail. Brad is a pro but has never been paid
To sail a Viper. He has actually kept Jackpot afloat. I was laid off for two years and he paid all of the bills for awhile to keep the boat rolling. So if anyone has a story of a Pro paying all the bills and travel expenses for the amateurs to get to regattas let me know. It's all for the fun and enjoyment of sailing this boat.
Viper--the class where pros pay to sail. Cheers Lee--glad the work's picked up--maybe it'll slow you down a bit.