This subject is Taboo

[Drew Harper]

Unless the person in question was a bottom 10% boat, brought the PRO on to help them learn and it was an isolated situation - this would absolutly not fly in the gulf.  At least in Texas. 

Frankly, it doesn't matter to me. It seems to matter little whether someone is getting paid or not...they just need to read the shifts and money rarely denotes that ability.

Ha ha yeah right. Let me get Ben Ainslie not on the pay roll and see if he calls shits better than anybody else in the fleet.

Pro's are paid for a reason, they are better than most amateurs and they have a track record to show it.

As an ex ISAF pro, I sail with friends who are pros and love the rule. They sail for fun and so do many others. You can sniff out the money being handed over very easily, harder to prove though. I think this may need a precidential appendix to make it legal but just using the spirit of the rule works 99.9% of the time.

Matt...you can beat Ainsley on a Viper...he's got an AWESOME crew on the AC45 and is getting his butt handed to him.

Hope nobodies getting wrankled at this conversation. It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules. He was uncomfortable with the 'grey' areas and suggested that we might look at that. I told him, in the West, we'll probably never care. I suspect it won't matter much in the Gulf either.

Like I said, the more the merrier.

Ooopps....

[Matt Sole]

Not wrankled, I just quite like the rule. It has good spirit. Which this class is about.

I do believe that we do need to have a uniformed approach to suspected violators. Its a tough subject to master. The ISAF has shown that after dealing with it for 25 years they are still not very good at it. So how should a group that has been working on it a couple of years able to perfect it.

The whole situation is very grey as it is very difficult to prove if a crew member is being paid so a black and white rule would not work.  A grey rule for a grey problem.

[Peter Beardsley]

Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors. 

This isn't too hard to do.  At minimum looking at the top 10, the following teams were all amateurs:
2nd
4th
7th
8th
9th (I think)
10th

Of the remaining 4 teams, 3 of the 4 were still majority amateur.  So this isn't as overrun as some people think, though it's a true statement that the level of competition in the class has been raised -- that is in part due to the fact that we have some great sailors in the class sharing "secrets" on how to make the boat go (some professional, most not, all who just want to be helpful and raise the bar), more Viper regattas, more people practicing, reading tuning guides, forum posts for miscellaneous tips and a certain number of years that have elapsed so that there's just more information out there and more time in the boat for all), and the fact that as the class grows, there are some better sailors who are attracted to the boat because it's a fun boat to sail and the larger fleets have appeal. 

Despite all that, anyone in the fleet is still more than willing to help out anyone else in the fleet (particularly if they're in the bottom half of the standings) and make everyone feel welcome.  It's a good situation -- if you want to improve in the Viper, you don't necessarily have to find a pro -- most don't.  The better answer is "just sail your Viper more, preferably against other Viper sailors." 

[Craig Wilusz]

via Jeff Jone: "knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him"

Whats JJ got against us knuckleheads?

[Craig Wilusz]

I personally love the competition and knowing who and what caliber of sailors were are competing against. It makes us "knuckleheads" motivate to try harder and learn all we can. #100 travels as much as we can so we can compete against the most competitive and biggest fleets ... because we will learn, have fun and be better sailors.

And as for the boats Peter mentioned as being amateurs ... which a little research it looks like those amateurs have some pretty impressive sailing credentials that they should be proud of and makes me proud to be competitive against (well, sometimes competitive against ... but always FUN!)

As for the rule ... even though gray ... it is a good rule and well, if some choose to break or stretch the rule ... they know who they are and they are the ones that have to look at themselves in the mirror.

D of the #100

[Justin Scott]

It was prompted by a pro with high moral fiber askign the question as he won't break the rules.

Sounds like he would fit right in with the Gulf Coast and the East Coast viper sailors. Tell him , he's a good man.

[Jeff Jones]

That's pretty cool.   

Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors. 

This isn't too hard to do.  At minimum looking at the top 10, the following teams were all amateurs:
2nd
4th
7th
8th
9th (I think)
10th

Of the remaining 4 teams, 3 of the 4 were still majority amateur.  So this isn't as overrun as some people think, though it's a true statement that the level of competition in the class has been raised -- that is in part due to the fact that we have some great sailors in the class sharing "secrets" on how to make the boat go (some professional, most not, all who just want to be helpful and raise the bar), more Viper regattas, more people practicing, reading tuning guides, forum posts for miscellaneous tips and a certain number of years that have elapsed so that there's just more information out there and more time in the boat for all), and the fact that as the class grows, there are some better sailors who are attracted to the boat because it's a fun boat to sail and the larger fleets have appeal. 

Despite all that, anyone in the fleet is still more than willing to help out anyone else in the fleet (particularly if they're in the bottom half of the standings) and make everyone feel welcome.  It's a good situation -- if you want to improve in the Viper, you don't necessarily have to find a pro -- most don't.  The better answer is "just sail your Viper more, preferably against other Viper sailors." 

[Jeff Jones]

Nothing, i am king of the knuckleheads...  but you've always given me a run for my money.

via Jeff Jone: "knucklehead wednesday night'ers who finish behind him"

Whats JJ got against us knuckleheads?

[Justin Scott]

Might be interesting to go through the 2012 NA results and identify which teams were all Cat 1 sailors.  

This isn't too hard to do.  At minimum looking at the top 10, the following teams were all amateurs:
2nd
4th
7th
8th
9th (I think)
10th

Of the remaining 4 teams, 3 of the 4 were still majority amateur.  

And its worth looking through those remaining in a little more detail.

Position # 6 I dont think anyone could accuse Jason Carroll of taking things too seriously . His crew included someone who makes his living from managing sailboats. The crewalso included his girlfriend and her friend as crew members 3 and 4, sailing four up. Bikini tops and hiking pants set the tone on that boat.  They rocked into town on Jasons's Gunboat, stayed up late at Maddies each night with the gfs and invited Viperers out to the Gunboat when Maddies closed . The pro treated sailing on the Viper as a vacation. I dont call that getting paid . I call that "living the life, man"


Position #5.
Jeremy Willmot called the week before the regatta to ask if anyone was looking for crew. Mambo Kings were missing a third for Thursday and Friday so he sailed two days with us and helped a bunch of people tune in the parking lot. His viewpoint is that it is a completely different feeling to be sailing in a regatta with no paid crew. First, for the pro there is not the pressure of having to justify the paycheck - if you are there on your own dime, you are just there to have fun. But most noticeable is the sharing. It would be unacceptable for a pro whose paid job is to help his owner win races to go around sharing  go-fast advice.
On the third day when we were an all-amateur crew and not distracted by sailing alongside other boats in the pre-start so that Jeremy could tell them to "use more leech tension", "hoist the main higher", or "take the jib top batten out" we had our best results of the regatta.  Admitedly, benefitting from the learning curve of the previous 2 days. It was a privilege. Jeremy loves the Viper, and he would like to own one himself some day. The only way he could do this  is if we keep the no-paid -to -sail rule. In the paid-to-sail classes, he has to earn a living and not sail his own boat. In the meantime, he has some exciting news, which he will be announcing in due course. "Go the Troll".

Position # 3
I dont want to put words into their mouths  but I dont think the "Jackpot" program would exist in its current form if it were not for the no-paid-to-sail rule.  
I believe that Lee bought the boat in this class because it was a great ride and because here was an opportunity for three long time friends and extraordinary sailors to sail together in an affordable way. I dont know how much Brad is worth as tactician on Melges and Etchells , or how much Lee is worth for bow gigs but I doubt that either of them could afford each other.  They have had to miss some Viper regattas because of customer gigs. But when Brad, Eric and Lee are on the Viper, there are no customers, just three friends sailing together. Jackpot has become part of the heart, soul and urban legend of the Viper class, complete with cooler and deck chairs.  I can't imagine this class without them.
If we had M20 rules with Cat 1 drivers and paid crew..... we would be without them.

Please dont read anything into my lack of insight into Blixem. I didnt get to hang out with them this weekend. I heard that Piet asked his crew who wanted to come and sail with him in the Viper for a few days. He bought it as a practice boat and he is loving it more than his grand prix machine. Clearly, incredibly good sailors....but 20 Viper "knucklehead"  teams got to sail past them on race 3 .   In the Viper, even the #2 ranked Laser sailor in team GBR's olympic squad can be devoured by the Peloton .

[Justin Scott]

Jeremy Willmot called the week before the regatta to ask if anyone was looking for crew. . . In the meantime, he has some exciting news, which he will be announcing in due course. "Go the Troll".

But here's a clue. DJ Troll (aka Willmot) has been living in the US since college at St Marys, qualifies as US citizen. It involves 5 circles and dedicating himself  to a dream for 4 years.  Hope it happens and hope the Viper fleet gets behind him on this. You read it here first!

Sorry for the diversion. Back to your normal programming.

Drew, I dont think you need to apologize for raising the subject. Its good to air this stuff, and I think the feedback and support for the rule is a good thing to hear.

[Brian Shores]

I support the rule of nobody being paid to sail on a Viper, if an owner is willing to cover regatta expenses for his crew that's his own decision, but doesn't give him an unfair advantage on the racecourse.  This type of payment is also too difficult to enforce, show me your receipts, yeah right!  Pros are finding creative ways to make money off the Viper class, ie putting together solid "unpaid" crews to place well in regattas to promote their sails, gear, expertise, etc.  I'm sure Brad and Farley have done well for themselves selling sails despite not being paid or paying anyone to sail on their boats.  I think the corinthian spirit is more relevant to the growth of the viper class and it should stay that way.  This is what has widened the gap between the Viper and Melges fleets.  If you want to have an arms race then go sail a Melges.

[Lee Eikel]

This is a tough one.  For me it's all about sailing with my friends, competing, becoming a better sailor, and getting away from work!  Having said that I do believe pros sail in the class, how are they paid?  I don't know but I don't think they are showing up just because they felt like sailing another weekend.  I do think it can have a effect on the bottom half of the class that just don't see themselves as ever being able to compete, and that would be bad.  The class needs to try to keep and eye on this and support the true amature sailor.  Give them some recognition for finishing close to some of these very generous with their time pro sailors.
Anyway, just my opinion and we all know what thats worth.  I'll be in the grove in Feb hope we get some boats to play with.

[David Furna]

"very generous with their time pro sailors."

nice way to put it Lee, future in Politics? See ya in the Grove



This is a tough one.  For me it's all about sailing with my friends, competing, becoming a better sailor, and getting away from work!  Having said that I do believe pros sail in the class, how are they paid?  I don't know but I don't think they are showing up just because they felt like sailing another weekend.  I do think it can have a effect on the bottom half of the class that just don't see themselves as ever being able to compete, and that would be bad.  The class needs to try to keep and eye on this and support the true amature sailor.  Give them some recognition for finishing close to some of these very generous with their time pro sailors.
Anyway, just my opinion and we all know what thats worth.  I'll be in the grove in Feb hope we get some boats to play with.

[Lee Eikel]

No politics for me.  To many skeletons in my closet for that!!  Or is that empty Rum bottles?

[Lee Shuckerow]

I am finally catching up on some things. Finally got a day off.
I have to air Jackpots dirty laundry. Brad and I teamed up to own and run Jackpot because it is such a great boat. Eric and I raced raced against brad for years on the ultimate 20s and cursed his name for most of it. i.e. we were beating brad in a major regatta down in Lake Norman and in the final race we broke our rig and Brad sailed to Victory, we blamed him for filing down our turnbuckles.  But we always had a great time when we hit the dock so we teamed up on the Viper and it's been great.

To get to the point Eric and I aren't Pros. Never been paid to sail. Brad is a pro but has never been paid
To sail a Viper. He has actually kept Jackpot afloat. I was laid off for two years and he paid all of the bills for awhile to keep the boat rolling. So if anyone has a story of a Pro paying all the bills and travel expenses for the amateurs to get to regattas let me know. It's all for the fun and enjoyment of sailing this boat.