Missing Barn Boats

[Doug Mroz]

Any update on the three missing boats? Its crazy to think that in someones garage, boat yard, or literally a barn there sits a viper tucked away from the late 90s. It could be years before they are found or could be tomorrow. I wonder what percentage of boats in classes go missing? Its nice its only three for us.

[Justin Scott]

#59 is still out there somewhere.

[Doug Mroz]

Thats the one at the bottom of the bay correct?

[Jeff Danhauer]

I just have a question... Does anyone know why my boat "Wild Turkey" has documentation as hull #41 but the vin# is 42?

[Justin Scott]

#41 was a Marblehead boat. Duncan McIntyre owned it.  Nice boat. it was cool to see it back in town at the NAs and y'all certainly brought a good portion of fun with you.  "We got bourbon" was best conclusion to a speech ive heard for a while.

#42 was down at Lake Lanier and then it found a good home in Vermont with Jason Hyerstay. Send a message to Jason and ask him to look at his VIN number.

History records that two hulls were stamped with #17. We can only blame the resin fumes.  

[Jason Hyerstay]

I passed this on to my co-owner. The boat is in storage across the lake, but we might have some documentation.

Strange!

jason

[Justin Scott]

I passed this on to my co-owner. The boat is in storage across the lake, but we might have some documentation.

Strange!

jason

Wot. No frostbiting this year?

[Doug Mroz]

Any update on this? Any guess as to which of the 4 missing boats is the one on bottom in Key West?

[Peter Beardsley]

Viper 35 was located a few months ago via a Craigslist post up in the Pacific Northwest.  The owner wanted 12k or so for it.  Story was that he got it from a sailing club about 10 years ago and it had not been modified(aluminum mast and small keel) except the owner added additional jib fairleads...and a trapeze.  Old sails, old keel, aluminum mast.  Consensus among Viper Illuminati was that the boat was priced 5-8k too high given the amount of work it would take to make it class legal.  So yes, the mythical barn boats do exist, but they are a pain to put back together and any owner who has one is unlikely to understand that.   

[Olaf Bleck]

So what is the fair value of a used Viper, particularly a Mark I but any used Viper?

I heard there's about $8k of materials in a hull, not including the keel, etc.  So assuming one could lay up a boat on your own, there's no way one could get a decent hull for any less than that.  Plus a keel, rudder, something like $2k in blocks and deck hardware, etc.  When I day decent, meaning it's not falling apart, doesn't leak, and weighs in okay.  If those three aren't the case, then the depreciation is the cost of fixing those things.  Most of the Mark I boats I've seen seem to be approaching that.

The rig is $4500.  There really aren't any used rigs generated from anywhere unless a boat is destroyed, so what's a used rig worth?  $4000?  Supply and demand says the depreciation is basically what it's worth extra to someone to buy a new rig if in fact they could locate a used one.

I don't know what a keel or rudder costs from Rondar.  Same argument as for the rig holds, assuming they aren't all chipped.  Again, depreciation is cost of maintenance.

A set of sails is the $1k-$4k range depending on how used it is.

Then, there's the "how good is the boat" factor.  If an owner sails it fairly competitively, then that adds to the value I'd think.  Justin's boat, #54 I think, certainly is an example.  I have #56 and it's probably pretty similar in performance, my sailing skills notwithstanding. (i.e. I've sailed new boats and not done any better or worse...)  Also, there just aren't that many boats you can get for under $20k, where there certainly is an "entry level" demand.

So I'd say $15k for a decent, race-ready Mark I boat seems pretty reasonable, and provided maintenance is upheld, any Viper really shouldn't depreciate to something much less than that.

[Jason Hyerstay]

Justin is #54! Your sig says #52. :)

Rescue that boat, somebody! The old boats are just as fast as the new boats!

[Olaf Bleck]

Justin is #54! Your sig says #52. :)

Ooops.  Mine is #56.  Haven't stared at that sail in waaayyyy too long.

[Peter Beardsley]

Olaf:

A lot of people, esp. Bennett owners it seems, get hung up on pricing of boats.  This became a slightly controversial topic when we put together the Used Boat Buyer's Guide -- Version 1.0 had suggested retail prices based on recent comps in the marketplace.  Version 2.0 did not after one Bennett owner voiced strong disagreement with the numbers, based in part on the fact that he thought his boat was worth a lot more. 

We can talk about recent comps, and at the end of the day, the "value" is whatever someone is willing to pay.  That said, adding up the value of the parts isn't usually a way to get to the right number for the boat value -- that tends to be too high. 

There is also a lot of variety in quality between Mark 1s -- some have been immaculately maintained and fully upgraded, others less so. 

My personal thought is that is that many used Mark 1s are overpriced based on their age and recent comps for other Mark 1s and for Mark 2 and Mark 3s, and that the best thing for the Class is to get boats in the hands of new owners.  If it means there is a low end to the used Viper market that makes it even more accessible for new owners vs. other sportboats, fantastic, new blood in the Class is always a good thing if there's an owner who wants to sell and isn't using a boat.

[Olaf Bleck]

...A lot of people, esp. Bennett owners it seems, get hung up on pricing of boats...

Well, I'm not sure what "hung up" means, but price of the boat to an owner is kind of important, isn't it?  I'd say as much as it is to say a buyer.

...the best thing for the Class is to get boats in the hands of new owners.  If it means there is a low end to the used Viper market that makes it even more accessible for new owners vs. other sportboats, fantastic, new blood in the Class is always a good thing if there's an owner who wants to sell and isn't using a boat.

Low price point boats might be great for the Class, but who do you propose should eat the discount?

It's certainly the case that a poorly cared for boat is going to be worth less.  However, if an older, _well cared for/upgraded_ boat is up for sale, what's IT worth?  That's the point of my analysis.

Granted, I'm biased because I have two older boats, and both of them are in pretty decent condition, but what I don't like to see is an artificially low value promulgated somehow by the Class because some boats are older (but no less functional or necessarily competitive) and it has some agenda such as accessibility, incentive to sell new boats, etc.

Case and point is #38, which just took second in the NA's (congrats guys!), now on the market for $22k.

Incidentally, the Class homepage red block entitled "How to Buy A Viper" really ought to have a link to the used boat section as well.  (The "For Sale" tab at the top does have both.)  Also, I'm told by some people who have inquired that they cannot view pictures of the used boats for sale in the forum pages.

[John Leyland]

The results over the years has shown that the Bennett boats are every bit as fast as the new ones but as indicated by Peter the value/price point is determined by what a buyer is willing to pay not necessarily the asking price.  The fact is a new boat is pretty affordable by today's standards.