Hull # 27 was finally found in 2011 and has moved to enjoy a new life in the dry air of the Desert Fleet in AZ.
I thought folks would be interested to know how many missing boats are still out there, undiscovered, hidden in someone's barn. It turns out that class members have chased down and recovered most of the early boats. There are now only 6 missing hull numbers and we know that at least one of them is resting on the ocean floor off Key West.
The remaining Barn boats still waiting to be found are:-
#14
#25
#32
#35
#48
and that holy grail, hull#59. Many have looked for her, but none have found her.
If anyone sees a carbon prod sticking out from under a stack of hay. Take a look at the number on the transom and let us know what you have found.
This is very cool that we are only missing six. Perhaps posting this to sailing anarchy may help generate leads?
Well, strictly speaking we are only missing five because we know where one of them is. We just dont know the hull number unless someone wants to dive on her.
Anyone who reads SA and hasnt come forward yet must be hiding from the mob or the FBI.
What's the tale behind the boat that went down off Key West?
Do tell!
If the location is know how come it was never raised? Obviously no point now.
Quote from: Matt Sole on January 09, 2012, 03:23:52 PM
Obviously no point now.
Except for it making for a great story. But it'd be a lot of work. We had a guy at Larchmont salvage a Shields that had been on the bottom for 3 years and fix it up. Extenuating circumstances include that he is crazy (in a good way) and that his father-in-law owns a boatyard. Pics and story posted at http://www.shieldsfleetone.org/Photos/Photos_231_Salvage/231%20salvage.htm
Its been on the bottom for over 10 years.
The gist of the story is that it hit a reef or rock going at speed, tore a huge hole in the hull and then slowly sank as they tried to sail or get towed back. This was back around 1999/2000, when class and Perf' Boats was folding so nobody thought it was worth rescuing.
We know the missing hull numbers so we assume that one of the missing numbers is lying off Key West.
This all unfolds because our new exec cttee is bringing our class owners roster into the twenty first century and loading it on to a cloud based CRM database. This is a great idea because the contact info and history of the boats will be safely stored and not depend on some Excel spread sheets stored on mine and previous class secretarys' computers.
Six volunteers divided the class roster up among ourselves over the weekend and took a group of numbers to download the data and make sure the owners and their contact info was correct. We can also download all previous owners info to create a record for each boat. Anyway, since I seem to know where some of the skeletons are buried, I volunteered to take the older hull numbers.
Which reminds me.......y'all ought to say a big thank you to Kelly Bechard from Sarnia, who has been huge about chasing down boats for the roster and building the map with Viper locations marked.
Kelly owns hull #57, which was originally owned by Tom Dimond and Seamus Hourihan.
Tom and Seamus duelled with Frank Hart and yours truly for 1st and 2nd for three succesive big breeze R19 North Americans. Then I bought a Viper. First regatta, there is Tom and Seamus. We were both equally surprised. Seamus, Tom, Rob Gorman, Wade, Dave Curtis etc........all the boats had big guys for crews then because the boats were brutal upwind in any breeze over 15 knots with the double sleeved treetrunk mast. The change to carbon mast has made the boat so much better behaved.
Do you have any info on the location of the sinking of the Keys Viper as I know a few divers down there who maybe just crazy enough to see if they could find her....
Quote from: Matt Sole on January 09, 2012, 07:10:45 PM
Do you have any info on the location of the sinking of the Keys Viper as I know a few divers down there who maybe just crazy enough to see if they could find her....
If anyone is crazy enough to try to find that boat, it's Matt!
Hey now Dan! Steady on! Not me but I know a good boat repair guy who also dives fro a living in Key West, so he maybe interested...
That's what you call growing the fleet from the bottom up!
I'm close to finding 25 and I dont think 14 was ever built.
Somebody, somewhere has #59.
Wasn't 25 recently sold in Texas?
Quote from: Ben Steinberg on January 17, 2012, 05:00:23 PM
Wasn't 25 recently sold in Texas?
Yup. I found it. We now have every boat in the 20 series pinned down. 25 needs a lot of TLC though. New mast is on its way to replace the Nacra mast it currently has.
You are now looking for 32, 35, 48 and 59.
One of them is OB so there are three barn boats out there.
Any update on the three missing boats? Its crazy to think that in someones garage, boat yard, or literally a barn there sits a viper tucked away from the late 90s. It could be years before they are found or could be tomorrow. I wonder what percentage of boats in classes go missing? Its nice its only three for us.
#59 is still out there somewhere.
Thats the one at the bottom of the bay correct?
I just have a question... Does anyone know why my boat "Wild Turkey" has documentation as hull #41 but the vin# is 42?
#41 was a Marblehead boat. Duncan McIntyre owned it. Nice boat. it was cool to see it back in town at the NAs and y'all certainly brought a good portion of fun with you. "We got bourbon" was best conclusion to a speech ive heard for a while.
#42 was down at Lake Lanier and then it found a good home in Vermont with Jason Hyerstay. Send a message to Jason and ask him to look at his VIN number.
History records that two hulls were stamped with #17. We can only blame the resin fumes.
I passed this on to my co-owner. The boat is in storage across the lake, but we might have some documentation.
Strange!
jason
Quote from: Jason Hyerstay on November 11, 2012, 04:34:31 PM
I passed this on to my co-owner. The boat is in storage across the lake, but we might have some documentation.
Strange!
jason
Wot. No frostbiting this year?
Any update on this? Any guess as to which of the 4 missing boats is the one on bottom in Key West?
Viper 35 was located a few months ago via a Craigslist post up in the Pacific Northwest. The owner wanted 12k or so for it. Story was that he got it from a sailing club about 10 years ago and it had not been modified(aluminum mast and small keel) except the owner added additional jib fairleads...and a trapeze. Old sails, old keel, aluminum mast. Consensus among Viper Illuminati was that the boat was priced 5-8k too high given the amount of work it would take to make it class legal. So yes, the mythical barn boats do exist, but they are a pain to put back together and any owner who has one is unlikely to understand that.
So what is the fair value of a used Viper, particularly a Mark I but any used Viper?
I heard there's about $8k of materials in a hull, not including the keel, etc. So assuming one could lay up a boat on your own, there's no way one could get a decent hull for any less than that. Plus a keel, rudder, something like $2k in blocks and deck hardware, etc. When I day decent, meaning it's not falling apart, doesn't leak, and weighs in okay. If those three aren't the case, then the depreciation is the cost of fixing those things. Most of the Mark I boats I've seen seem to be approaching that.
The rig is $4500. There really aren't any used rigs generated from anywhere unless a boat is destroyed, so what's a used rig worth? $4000? Supply and demand says the depreciation is basically what it's worth extra to someone to buy a new rig if in fact they could locate a used one.
I don't know what a keel or rudder costs from Rondar. Same argument as for the rig holds, assuming they aren't all chipped. Again, depreciation is cost of maintenance.
A set of sails is the $1k-$4k range depending on how used it is.
Then, there's the "how good is the boat" factor. If an owner sails it fairly competitively, then that adds to the value I'd think. Justin's boat, #54 I think, certainly is an example. I have #56 and it's probably pretty similar in performance, my sailing skills notwithstanding. (i.e. I've sailed new boats and not done any better or worse...) Also, there just aren't that many boats you can get for under $20k, where there certainly is an "entry level" demand.
So I'd say $15k for a decent, race-ready Mark I boat seems pretty reasonable, and provided maintenance is upheld, any Viper really shouldn't depreciate to something much less than that.
Justin is #54! Your sig says #52. :)
Rescue that boat, somebody! The old boats are just as fast as the new boats!
Quote from: Jason Hyerstay on September 04, 2014, 09:04:47 PM
Justin is #54! Your sig says #52. :)
Ooops. Mine is #56. Haven't stared at that sail in waaayyyy too long.
Olaf:
A lot of people, esp. Bennett owners it seems, get hung up on pricing of boats. This became a slightly controversial topic when we put together the Used Boat Buyer's Guide -- Version 1.0 had suggested retail prices based on recent comps in the marketplace. Version 2.0 did not after one Bennett owner voiced strong disagreement with the numbers, based in part on the fact that he thought his boat was worth a lot more.
We can talk about recent comps, and at the end of the day, the "value" is whatever someone is willing to pay. That said, adding up the value of the parts isn't usually a way to get to the right number for the boat value -- that tends to be too high.
There is also a lot of variety in quality between Mark 1s -- some have been immaculately maintained and fully upgraded, others less so.
My personal thought is that is that many used Mark 1s are overpriced based on their age and recent comps for other Mark 1s and for Mark 2 and Mark 3s, and that the best thing for the Class is to get boats in the hands of new owners. If it means there is a low end to the used Viper market that makes it even more accessible for new owners vs. other sportboats, fantastic, new blood in the Class is always a good thing if there's an owner who wants to sell and isn't using a boat.
Quote from: Peter Beardsley on September 08, 2014, 12:00:18 PM
...A lot of people, esp. Bennett owners it seems, get hung up on pricing of boats...
Well, I'm not sure what "hung up" means, but price of the boat to an owner is kind of important, isn't it? I'd say as much as it is to say a buyer.
Quote from: Peter Beardsley on September 08, 2014, 12:00:18 PM
...the best thing for the Class is to get boats in the hands of new owners. If it means there is a low end to the used Viper market that makes it even more accessible for new owners vs. other sportboats, fantastic, new blood in the Class is always a good thing if there's an owner who wants to sell and isn't using a boat.
Low price point boats might be great for the Class, but who do you propose should eat the discount?
It's certainly the case that a poorly cared for boat is going to be worth less. However, if an older, _well cared for/upgraded_ boat is up for sale, what's IT worth? That's the point of my analysis.
Granted, I'm biased because I have two older boats, and both of them are in pretty decent condition, but what I don't like to see is an artificially low value promulgated somehow by the Class because some boats are older (but no less functional or necessarily competitive) and it has some agenda such as accessibility, incentive to sell new boats, etc.
Case and point is #38, which just took second in the NA's (congrats guys!), now on the market for $22k.
Incidentally, the Class homepage red block entitled "How to Buy A Viper" really ought to have a link to the used boat section as well. (The "For Sale" tab at the top does have both.) Also, I'm told by some people who have inquired that they cannot view pictures of the used boats for sale in the forum pages.
The results over the years has shown that the Bennett boats are every bit as fast as the new ones but as indicated by Peter the value/price point is determined by what a buyer is willing to pay not necessarily the asking price. The fact is a new boat is pretty affordable by today's standards.
Quote from: John Leyland on September 08, 2014, 11:26:20 PM
... but as indicated by Peter the value/price point is determined by what a buyer is willing to pay not necessarily the asking price. The fact is a new boat is pretty affordable by today's standards.
It's also determined by what people are willing to sell their boats for, while hopefully not selling out.
I can put the comps out there for recent sales for anyone who wants to see them. Some of them I think were pretty good boats and the owners who were motivated to sell were able to sell them quickly. Not everyone will be happy with what they see, but it will add a big layer of transparency for those who are interested. Boats that are priced at or around what the market (i.e. BUYERS, not existing owners) think is fair sell quickly. Boats that are priced too high stay on the forums for a year plus, which is bad for everyone.
Quote from: Peter Beardsley on September 09, 2014, 09:56:03 AM
Boats that are priced at or around what the market (i.e. BUYERS, not existing owners) think is fair sell quickly. Boats that are priced too high stay on the forums for a year plus, which is bad for everyone.
The market is determined by supply and demand. If there's an abundance of boats for sale, the price tends to drop. If there's a seller who doesn't really care what he gets for whatever reason or will take a loss to move it faster, then he can of course sell it rather quickly. If there's a fixer-upper that someone wants to move and the buyer has boat building skills, then the buyer discounts the work it needs (and hence the effective price) and it will move quickly.
If there's pressure from other sources (such as the Class....?!!) on sellers to sell boats at a discount, then NO, not everyone wins: the seller looses his equity, and the future sellers lose too based on the comps. I'd be appalled if the Class was in some way encouraging this sort of price manipulation.
+1
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on September 09, 2014, 01:16:24 PM
The market is determined by supply and demand. If there's an abundance of boats for sale, the price tends to drop. If there's a seller who doesn't really care what he gets for whatever reason or will take a loss to move it faster, then he can of course sell it rather quickly. If there's a fixer-upper that someone wants to move and the buyer has boat building skills, then the buyer discounts the work it needs (and hence the effective price) and it will move quickly.
If there's pressure from other sources (such as the Class....?!!) on sellers to sell boats at a discount, then NO, not everyone wins: the seller looses his equity, and the future sellers loose too based on the comps. I'd be appalled if the Class was in some way encouraging this sort of price manipulation.
To help those selling Bennett built boats I might suggest that they add that the fact they were built in the US. This might help with potential Canadian buyers who have to pay 9.5% duty on UK built boats while US built boats are covered under NAFTA.
I agree with Peter, the worst thing for the Class is not low price boats selling quickly, but overpriced used boats languishing on the for sale listing for months or years upon end.
If you have a one-design boat for sale, and others are selling when yours isn't, you might think to adjust your listed price.
It's a shame that this topic continues to be so hot on the forums. The Viper is such a fantastic boat, the owners are a friendly group of people and fun to sail with/against, and the class has done a very good job growing the fleet over the last number of years. Rondar continues to produce boats to meet demand, and there is a healthy number of used boats for sale over a wide range of price points. There is also a healthy range of boats as far as condition (everything from turn key to fixer upper, and everything in between).
We just concluded a tightly contested North American Championship, and HPDO is right around the corner. Next year at NA's, my personal opinion is that it will be the largest collection of Vipers on one start line ever. October 2015 will probably be the best month of Viper racing in the history of the class.
Let's agree to disagree, move on from this, and get back to fun Viper sailing forums again.
I have just ordered a new boat. It will be my fifth Viper (jest trying to keep up with Jonesy).
I have sold three previous Vipers and I will be selling my current boat.
The sale will take place at a price it is worth to me and a price it is worth to the buyer. Nobody else can affect that.
The buyers of my three previous boats, Doug, Joe and Hiro are loving their boats. If you ask them I bet they will tell you they were happy with the price they paid and I was very happy with the price I received.
I gained three friends in the process and get to sail against them.
What more can you want?
This thread last touched 8 years ago...
Where is the hull number on the boat?
I just bought a mk1 (I think, based on the descriptions) here in New Zealand - named Growler, by the state of the signwriting Id guess it's the original name.
It needs some love, but it's sound.
Quote from: RobThompson on August 24, 2022, 07:48:18 AMThis thread last touched 8 years ago...
Where is the hull number on the boat?
I just bought a mk1 (I think, based on the descriptions) here in New Zealand - named Growler, by the state of the signwriting Id guess it's the original name.
It needs some love, but it's sound.
Hi Rob - Congratulations on the purchase. Hull numbers are located within the Vin Number, likely indicated on the transom. If you share your Vin someone can decode it to tell you your hull number. Alternatively, can you share you sail number? Most boats have the hull number match the sail number.
Quote from: RobThompson on August 24, 2022, 07:48:18 AMThis thread last touched 8 years ago...
Where is the hull number on the boat?
I just bought a mk1 (I think, based on the descriptions) here in New Zealand - named Growler, by the state of the signwriting Id guess it's the original name.
It needs some love, but it's sound.
I am familiar with Growler and corresponded with one of the prior owners.
I can look up the number for you this weekend and I think I might have some photos from the past.
At one time it had a humongous, outa control, very tall custom carbon rig. If that has survived, I would be shocked. When I asked them what it took to sail with that rig, the response was " You need to be a strong swimmer!"
Cool! yeah some pics would be awesome!
The only number I can find on it is a faint outline on the hull at the bow - ~150mm high font: 20
I suspect its the same rig you mention, maybe cut down a bit- masthead to gooseneck is 8m.
It's carbon but it has obvious modifications along the way and painted black. Mast section is pretty hefty, suggests it came from a bigger much heavier boat.
It still has the original 70kg bulb (I think), but also came with a spare 130kg bulb. Its fair, but never fitted with holes / bolts etc - I'm guessing that was a response to the bigger rig but they cut down the rig instead of fitting it -seems like a wise idea!
It's in sailing condition. But it's an old boat and it shows re paint patch-ups, deck gear modifications and additions/subtractions etc. A few cracks and dents etc, most of the running gear looks a bit old and weathered.
There's cracking around the aft end of the keel cassette at cockpit sole level - doesnt look terminal... Also some gelcoat cracking around the rudder post.
There's separation in the laminate around sections of the the gunn'l join (at the edges). But it seems to be between the gelcoat/first layer of glass and main laminate, again not a structural problem imho. Its not in the join itself, nor in the guts of the laminate.
My plan is to give it a big ol' clean, replace whatever running gear looks dodgy, and go sailing for the coming summer. Then give it some love over next winter - nice wee project for this old desk-bound boatbuilder :)
My images of Growler are on a previous computer. They might be there somewhere but is a long time since it got turned on.
My memory is fading. I think she got to New Zealand because Brian sold her to an AC team member who threw her in a container with gear and got her to NZ for free. Once there she was acquired by a group of adrenaline junkies who fitted the absurd rig, went screaming around but did a whole lot of swimming. The beast was then tamed by shortening the rig and went to a really nice guy who I spoke to a few times. He raced her in the harbor on handicap. He owned a cruising cat and eventually sold Growler to spend time cruising KZ and the Pacific. My cousin and her family spent a couple of years in Auckland to see if they would like to live there and I introduced them to the former Growler owner , who took them cruising in the cat.....they became friends.
The Viper tribe is global and very friendly.
If anyone is looking for Barn boats to extend TLC to....I have found two nice Mark 1 barn boats.
I say "nice" because they are both Joe DaPonte builds (means a better quality assembly and better keel boxes), and both have carbon rigs and the keel job done. Carbon masts have become the big investment for barn builds, so it is important that they already have the masts. Neither of them have been used for 10 years.
Neither of them has the vertical bracket installed.
Please contact me if you are interested or if you know a budget conscious program that would be interested.
I remain curious what happened to Mark 2 boat #147 which has disappeared into a barn somewhere.
Thanks Justin! - good info to know
As happens, I was gazumped by other things and havent even got in the water yet!
But I have finally got it to the marina and mast up (treetrunk of a mast, not exactly bendy/skiff like). Now to sort out all the deck gear...
I have some questions but I'll put in a new post