Hey guys Andy McCormick here. I am a west coast sailor and boat jig. I will have a big trailer showing up shortly that will be able to carry six Vipers in one trip. I have been discussing the plans with Gerrit and Drew here on the west coast. As well as Dan Tucker out east. My goal is to make it easy and affordable for the teams that want to travel. The more boats that can get on brings the cost down for the owners. Now to make this work the keels will have to come out of the boats. The plan here is to have a hoist that is mounted on the trailer. Boats can either be on their own road trailer, or dolly. The boats will stay on the current bunks. Each boat will be on its own, not stacked deck to deck. The goal is to have this up and running by June. The base trailer is getting built early mid May. I take delivery towards the end of the month, then get going on the rack system. I am working with a naval architect/engineer to design and structurally engineer the racks. My goal is to get Vipers up to Whidbey Island Race Week in July. Cost per boat per mile has not been fully dialed in yet. For six boats I think you can expect to be under a dollar a mile per boat.
Do the keels have a resting place on the multi-boat trailer once the keels are removed from the boats?
Love the concept and even love getting boats up to WIRW even more! :)
A dollar a mile seems steep though since you can tow your own for a 1/3 of that. It does save the drive time though.
The keels will stay with the boat on the same trailer. The boat package stays together. Keels need to come out to keep the height under control.
Yes, but once the keels are removed from the boats, where precisely are they supposed to go -- underneath the boat on the small trailer used for the boat? If so, everyone would need to build some sort of holder for the keel. Or is there another spot on the larger 6-boat trailer where all of the keels would go?
Plan is to have them vertical as they are transported currently. On their side under the boats gets complicated with loading and over all height, that was the first thought though. Boats will most likely be bow to bow with the keels on the sides of the trailer on the inboard side of the racks. Last thing I want to be doing is fixing and fairing keels before a regatta. Want to use as much existing bunks/trailers as possible with out teams needing to buy/build/supply bunks. Would be prefered if the boat was on a dolly but not mandatory It will be a little bit of musical boats. Axles will need to come off trailers when they are loaded and in position before loading the next level. Teams do not need any extra parts.
For six boats, price per mile will be UNDER a dollar per boat.
Under $1/mile is a screaming deal for professional transport. At 10 MPG self towing, your cost is $0.40/mile JUST FOR FUEL with gas at $4/gal. IRS mileage is $0.55/mile these days. Factor in your time and hassle.
Under $1 mile is an AWESOME price. The math on towing it yourself or hiring it to be towed is considerable. My double trailer hauls at 11 MPG behind my gas pickup. Diesel would gain some advantage but then fuel is more expensive.
My latest road trip ran $1.27 mile including fuel, wear and tear. If I add labor it jumps sharply.
Just a side note...Andy is a great guy who gets the job done, does exactly what he says he'll do and will honor his word without fail. Hard to beat that.
Does $1 per mile apply to N.A.s? So roughly $6,000 to Marblehead and back to Long Beach?
Quote from: Dan Tucker on April 30, 2012, 11:12:44 AM
At 10 MPG self towing, your cost is $0.40/mile JUST FOR FUEL
Good god Dan, what the hell do you drive?? :)
There is power in numbers here. With the Vipers being so light and a little shorter than the M-20 we can get six on as opposed to four boats. As long as there are six boats going yes under a dollar applies. Less than six the rate will be higher. The keels do need to come off. There are two choices here. One, your team can lift the boat off and have the keel sitting next to the boat ready to load. Or two, I can lift her on and off the keel with the hoist. There will be a small charge for option two. Option three is full service break down and assembly. Long Beach to Marblehead is roughly 3k miles so WITH SIX BOATS expect too pay less than $3k to get out for the NA and yes roughly under $6k for round trip. Actual mileage will depend on pick up and drop points, this is just an estimate. Long Beach to Whidbey and back roughly $2,400
Quote from: Garrett Johns on April 30, 2012, 09:59:17 PM
Quote from: Dan Tucker on April 30, 2012, 11:12:44 AM
At 10 MPG self towing, your cost is $0.40/mile JUST FOR FUEL
Good god Dan, what the hell do you drive?? :)
1/4 ton Chevy Silverado. Might be almost 12 mpg with only 1 Viper @ 70 MPH. My Saab convertible would get 16-17 mpg towing a Viper at 70 MPH :) Cost me $1200 in engine/transmission mounts after ~10K of towing, and a $1500 cylinder head replacement on the way to Miami last year though :( Yeah, there are those indirect costs of DIY towing in my case... so that was another $0.27/mile for me.
So figuring I towed 10K miles @ 16 mpg @ $4/gal for gas, including those repairs, my cost/mile was $0.52 + tolls + oil changes + tires + brakes + my time. Pretty easy to see how even $1/mile to just drop your boat somewhere and have it magically appear at a regatta is a value.
There's a good reason most of us don't actually look at the full true cost of travelling to a regatta. If I recall my psychology class from long ago, I believe it's called cognitive dissonance?
I must be deep in "cognitive dissonance", becasue I am still having a problem with the maths. The matrix for Widbey looks like $250+ / hr of driving. I guess is a good gig if you can get it.
My cost for 3,800 mile round-trip to New Orleans with K-Mag driving my Ford Flex (17 MPG): $950 in gas plus $250 per day labor (4days), for total of $1,950. This is about 51 cents per mile.
Something still doesn't add up for me: For Whidbey, we have a marine transport trucker that can get 6 Vipers to Whidbey and back for $4,000 (on bunks or trailers, keels IN). That's $800 per boat - round trip.
Andy's cost will be $14,400. I know our guy is a friend and is giving us a break, but that is a pretty big difference in cost. Of course, there's some more labor with our plan getting boats loaded & unloaded, but I'm happy to spend an extra day in Whidbey.
I still love Andy's plan to build a bitchin trailer, but I'd like to understand the cost breakdown that leads to charging $6 per mile. I imagine this is an expensive trailer.
-Jimbo
Just for comparison of professional boat haulage prices.
There is nobody on the East coast for under $1 per mile capability. Back when gas was $3 per gallon, Brian started by charging us $1 per mile on the multiboat trailer but then had to increase it to $1.25.
The pros all charge over $1 because they have to cover the depreciation of their rig, earn a return on capital on their invested capital in the rig, pay themselves for down time between trips as well as actual time in motion, and they are all fully insured.
Admitedly the current East Coast capacity is for 2 boats at a time, so what makes Andy's rig exciting is the potential economies of scale that can be achieved with a 6 boat rig. As Andy crunches his final numbers it will be very interesting to see what he comes out with. "Under a dollar" ranges from 1 cent to 99 cents.
He is not going to be able to compete with the buddy who is using your rig and getting $250 per day + gas money. So it will be more than 50 cents.But he is going to be cheaper than the other full service insured pro shippers. So it will be less than a dollar. Where it falls in that range I dont know.
If you are running away from a bear, you dont have to outrun the bear, just your competitor.
In the meantime, hug that marine transporter trucker, buy him rum and start getting him phsyched for sightseeing in Boston in September. He will get a warm welcome in Marblehead. I volunteer right now to meet him at the town line with a big welcome banner and hot coffee. He sounds like a keeper.....dont publish his name online in case someone from another class is reading this.
The other way to look at this if Andy is willing to consider such a proposal is "how much would it cost to buy this trailer from Andy?" Some of us may have friends who can haul, or would haul it ourselves with proper insurance, etc., and might have interest in splitting the cost with our local fleets (i.e., Larchmont, Marblehead, Newport) to get 6 boats from the fleet down to Miami in the winter or over to Houston and Long Beach -- the trailer would get a fair amount of use, so maybe it'd make sense for us to just buy one if Andy has a good design. I'd like to see it first. Andy: if you're not willing to put a price on the rig publicly, I understand, but feel free to send me an email. Definitely curious, and we need an east coast option anyhow since Andy wouldn't be moving boats around over here I'm guessing if he's based on the west coast.
And if the trailer can have sidings that could carry sponsor logos etc, I think we could start figuring out a way to help pay for acquisition of a trailer that travels LIS - Miami and Texas-Miami twice a year.
I would love to be able to give you guys an exact price per mile right now. I am just not ready yet to put an exact number out yet, because I just don't know right now. Under a dollar for six boats, and no it is not going to be 99cents. The estimates that I have posted are maximums. If you use those numbers for budgeting there is a a big safety factor. Yes this is going to be a very expensive trailer. Add commercial cargo and liability insurance, DMV/DOT fees, trailer maintenance, designing, structural engineering, fabrication, material cost, tow vehicle, tow vehicle maintenance, trailer maintenance, etc etc it all adds up to more than you think. I do not know yet what it is going to cost in fuel to drive down the road with this "mega trailer". Farr-30, 1D35, Melges 24, Protector 28 and 35, Express 27, Moore 24, BAADS six boat Liberty trailer, various support trailers etc etc. They all get a different mpg, fuel prices fluctuate and this is going to be heavy with lots of windage. The idea is to always have this available to a couple small groups. Primarily you guys and the Melges 20s. At the same competitive price for the boats in Long Beach as well as the boats in Seattle, Texas, Florida, SF, AZ, NE and any other groups around the country. Will it always be the cheapest way to go? No but if the guys on the west coast are able to score a rockstar deal for transport is that deal always on the table? Is it on the table for the various fleets around the country? Is that same rate going to apply getting your boat from Seattle to Marblehead and then down to Florida? I am not a full time transporter. I am not going to be bailing out looking for the next load as soon as your boats are off loaded. Or trying to find stuff to put in your boats to get a few extra dollars on my across the country. I am a sailor and want to sail with one of you guys for the regattas.
Quote from: Tim Carter on May 01, 2012, 12:28:43 PM
I must be deep in "cognitive dissonance", becasue I am still having a problem with the maths. The matrix for Widbey looks like $250+ / hr of driving. I guess is a good gig if you can get it.
Yeah...for the drive time, not the load, unload X 2 X 6. Lots of hours. It took Garett and I 8 hours to load/unload two boats off the two boat trailer. It's a complete PIA and I'd hate to rely on some guy at the end of the road who's lift 'may' be working to ensure that my boat gets to sail at the regatta. From what I hear, the Whidbey Guy wants $100 each way, per boat for the load off and on. That makes an additional $1200 for the 'friend' deal. I like Andy's philosophy of not having to count on anyone at either side of the trip. I can't imagine calling up an owner and saying, "I've got the boat here, but we have to hire a forklift to haul it off and get the keel installed...by the way, we'll have to pay again at the end of the regatta too."
The biggest benefit will be who gets Andy to sail about their Viper. The f'n guy is fast!
When it all comes down to the bottom line this won't pay the mortgage but it will help keep the lights on.
All right guys I am thinking $.75 a mile. So for the So cal guys wanting to do Whidbey this would come in around $1,800 round trip from Long Beach and back. This is an estimate actual mileage will vary.
I have said that I will need to charge a bit for getting the keels on and off. This is NOT going to be out sourced and will be a flat rate for the round trip. So for example lift off in LB, lift on in Whidby, lift off in Whidby, lift on in LB. $120
Big picture plan is for the trailer to be traveling with the fleet. For example get some west coast boats out to Marblehead then go down and pick up some Florida boats bring them up to Marblehead. Then if the midwest guys want to go out. If the east coast guys want to go west we can make that work as well.
Way to go Andy! I hope this concept finally comes to fruition after a lot well meaning discussions.
The "ballpark" rule of thumb for pro semi-hauling is about $3/mile, loaded. i.e. you call, a truck shows up, you load, they drive away, someone unloads at the other end.
In this case, it sounds like Andy is building a trailer, organizing the logistics, dealing with loading and unloading, and handling the overhead. For $.75/mile. Sounds reasonable to me.
Still, it's a heck of a cost for a few days of sailing, esp. if you then also figure in travel for every individual (which you get included if you tow).
Maybe this rig also needs a 20 man "crew compartment" with a wet bar... LOL!
Sounds great Andy. Send pics when it's all coming together!
OK guys, time to sign up for the NorAms. Wait till you see Harvey's video of CRW. 40 boats on the line is a thing of beauty...just imagine 60!
Ya I dunno know about the crew quarters but I think I can find space for a keg or two and a couple cases of rum. For short trips it makes sense to just tow your own boat with your team. But when you look at the longer trips the time adds up pretty fast and not everyone can take the time off of work to drive 15hrs or more each way. Fly in and your boat is there waiting for you, when the regatta is over have some beers head to airport and your boat will get home.
I do want to get this thing working so for the first trip I want to throw out $1 for three, $.75 a mile for four boats, $.60 for six. If critical mass can develop I can see keeping the cost pretty low. For the first run I will get the rigs in and out of the boats under the same rate to get the keels on and off. $120 gets the boat broken down, loaded, unloaded, assembled, broken down, loaded, unloaded, assembled. If you and your team want to handle the break down and assembly no worries I will handle the actual loading part of it. Again if we can get critical mass going I can see keeping costs down.
This goes out to the other fleets as well not just the so cal boats.
Holy Crap. OK...you PNW guys have GOT to come to LBRW. We need to get this event HUGE. The bigger it is, the more the West Coast Viper fleet will grow.
60ยข mile leaves zero excuses.
We need to get onboard this program. I didn't plan on sailing the NA's in Marblehead. Now this is easily in reach.
Thanks Andy for bustin butt on this!
Alright guys I would like to try and get things together for WIRW. Let me know if if you are interested.
Hi Andy, right now we have 3 boats coming up together. The other 3 have there own travel plans. And the 3 together currently have a travel plan... cross fingers... :)
Going to do some test loading this week. I'll keep you guys posted on how things come together
Just wanted to give you guys a little update. First off the the base trailer was a month late, pretty frustrated on that one. I need to get this thing on a scale to verify some axle and tongue weights. The bummer was while test loading the tongue scale we had failed. Two boats fit on easily. I had hopes that three might just barely fit on the deck. Need two more feet of deck to get the third set of axles on. Problem then is that you become really too long then. Next step is to get going on the racks. Then get the loading system worked out.