At our regatta committee meeting this spring, I spoke to our local PHRF chairman about our Viper rating. I just sent him a list I compiled of Melges 24 vs Viper 640 PHRF ratings. Please let me know if you have any other areas to add to this list. I think we should make sure to update the Viper 640 rating page to make it a resource for PHRF appeals.
Thanks,
jason
M24 - V640
099 - 102 - Lake Champlain
094 - 106 - Boulder YC (Illinois)
___ - 111 - Lake George
084 - 111 - SoCal
099 - 105 - Narraganset Bay
___ - 111 - Arizona
090 - 108 - Lake Ontario
099 - 108 - Long Island Sound
094 - 106 - Lake Carlyle
093 - 105 - Florida
093 - 102 - Gulf (just one boat)
084 - 096 - NoCal (all ratings seem lower there)
087 - 099 - Lake Lanier
PHRF New England is "99U" (unofficial).
They won't give us an official rating since the local curmudgeonry doesn't take kindly to sport boats.
Need a motor too (not a big deal), and they sometimes put a 24' minimum on boats if they really don't want vipers there.
Jason,
If you could add number of boats and what experience level the book says (A B C) that would be really useful to update our web page.
Eastern Connecticut Sailing Association
Melges 24: 90
Viper: 93 (no outboard), 99 (with outboard)
Ouch
96 in Lake Huron no outboard
GYA, Gulf Yachiting Association, about 30 YCs from Panama City to LA-TX border. One regional PHRF fleet. Rating got bumped up from 96 to 102 this year.
A) No Motor
B) No hiking, not permited to "hike Out" in GYA PHRF. This is for all GYA PHRF boats regardless of model. If the boat has lifelies you can hang over the side "photohike" style but only when two lifelines are in place.
Attatched is comparison chart I made for local PHF committee, adjusted this year when new PHRF number for Viper came out.
I'm still the winner or uh loser I guess, with a 90P in NC, no motor, hiking allowed.
We don't have any M24s, but they rate 90 also.
Wow. PHRF is lame. I've got a 96, no motor, hiking allowed in Melbourne, FL. While 3 hours away in Miami, with essentially the same wind and weather, they get a 103. Stupid.
Quote from: David Furna on April 20, 2011, 07:39:26 AM
I'm still the winner or uh loser I guess, with a 90P in NC, no motor, hiking allowed.
We don't have any M24s, but they rate 90 also.
That is absurd.
Quote from: Justin Scott on April 19, 2011, 09:21:33 PM
Jason,
If you could add number of boats and what experience level the book says (A B C) that would be really useful to update our web page.
I'll have to see if I can get that information. What I posted was just data I compiled from our class site and searching the web.
Cheers,
jason
I submitted for a new rating locally for a new boat. Currently it's Melges 96, Viper 99. I sent the committee the various bits of info from the Viper site hoping for a 102 (provisional). They met yesterday so hopefully I'll hear something soon and when I do I'll let everyone know. I'm in Halifax, Nova Scotia so I'm under PHRF-NS.
Luke.
In Galveston Bay (Houston Tx) Vipers rate 96 without motors.
My PHRF is 96 on the Chesapeake- no allowance for motor. I have a J29 eating my lunch and his PHRF is 111.
Is anyone familiar with how these PHRF ratings are generated? I mean really...! Anywhere between 90 and 115 or so? WTF.
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on May 16, 2011, 11:41:15 AM
Is anyone familiar with how these PHRF ratings are generated?
Yep - a bunch of people (aka committee) with no special skills sit in a room and make shit up. The stated goal is fair and fun racing. The actual goal is whatever politically correct outcome is needed on their local race course. The "right" people and the "right" boats must win. The "wrong" people and the "wrong" boats must lose. Perception matters much more than facts. (For example, Vipers get a heavier keel, that must be faster so nick them 6 seconds. Why 6? Because that's the way it's always been done. )
Ok, ok, I'm ranting. I actually believe that most PHRF committees have good hearts and are trying to do the right thing, but it's an impossible situation. At it's heart it's trying to solve a math problem using politics - a good recipe for failure.
If your local PHRF rating groups you in courses and starts with boats that are fun to sail with, then consider it a success and try not to worry about the scores. On the other hand, if you find yourself on the wrong side a fleet split sailing with boats that make your life miserable, then go fight for those 6 or 12 or whatever that will put you some place fun.
Actually, the YRALIS rating is worse than advertised -- it was 108 for Vipers but was changed at a meeting last year, so now Vipers are 96 (no outboard, hiking) and Melges 24s are 99. Not much of a body of evidence for comparison in either class in WLIS though.
It also says that the Viper weighs 700 lbs, can be sailed with up to 900 lbs of crew weight, and has a masthead kite, so there are some faulty assumptions worth challenging there if anyone wants to make an issue out if it (even though most clubs in WLIS will not let a Viper race PHRF due to not meeting the minimum safety regulations).
Our area GYA (gulf Yachting Association) bumped us for a 99 to a 102 to reflect the differences as compared to the Melges 24. However our max crew limit is 7. Seven people. Be like clowns jumping out of a VW Beatle.
Jesus! 7 people!
Sounds like Bermuda fitted dinghy racing to me!
PNW
Melges 99
Viper 105T (temporary rating to see how things shake out for the year)
Yep, 7 people, or 1260lbs recommend crew weight max. hahahaha
Having been becalmed far too often after a race this year I'm thinking about putting an engine on my Viper for PHRF racing. I'm talking to the local handicapping people about how this would change my rating and was told I'd probably be looking at +6 points. In Ontario, According to Harvey, they get +12. I asked about looking at the issue with regards the relative weights and performances and got the following:
"If you officially apply for the change it will be addressed at the next
NSYA handicap meeting and is possible will be treated as a modified
boat. However we did have a Soling that had an inboard deisel with a
shaft. It was only given +6 for this and we all know that it was much
much slower."
I don't rate my chances very high against attitudes like that!
I just wanted to bitch, a 27lb engine on the back is far less hindrance than my driving regardless of rating changes.
Luke.
Here's a pic of my outboard. It's a 1.5hp air cooled, basically a weed-eater, built in tank, $80 craigslist. I welded up a simple bracket and bolted it to the Bennett boat motor mount holes. A couple shelving angle brackets and a small piece of 2x4 would probably do it too.
Pushes the boat at about 3.5-3.7 upwind for about 2 miles on a tank.
PHRF New England requires a motor that can do the square root of the length in knots on flat water with no breeze, which works out to 4.4 or so, and I think this one is about sufficient. I'm not sure about the prop pitch. I didn't weigh it, but it's not heavy. Maybe 20-25 lbs with fuel and bracket said and done. Not enough certainly to warrant +6... Move the crew forward a bit to compensate for the stern weight.
PHRF in general doesn't like sport boats, let alone small ones which can zip around the establishment's leadmines on a whim. You just gotta take what they give you and sail fast.
I got my rating moved from 99 to 102 - my bad initially, I won the single handed race the first time sailing the boat. Last time I win anything, I bet. . . No motor, but no official challenge. Although some sailors tell me I have to have one, I have found no written rule to that effect. Did I mention I know the ratings committee chairman, and he said he could move any rating 3 seconds without a committee vote?!
David
Quote from: David Oliver on September 03, 2011, 07:24:49 PM
I got my rating moved from 99 to 102 - my bad initially, I won the single handed race the first time sailing the boat. Last time I win anything, I bet. . . No motor, but no official challenge. Although some sailors tell me I have to have one, I have found no written rule to that effect.
It all depends on your region's PHRF rules. PHRF New England's only rule if you read them, is that you have to have a motor. Many have told me that you have to have a head, lifelines, etc. etc., but that's not true in this region. However, many PHRF regattas will require you to meet certain ISAF standards, which is usually cat 4 or cat 5. The Viper does meet cat 5 "inshore ocean racing" if you carry certain gear (anchor, a bucket, throwout line, air horn, etc.). Cat 4 is more serious and requires lifeline, bow and stern pulpits, etc.
On the other hand, some regattas just want more boats to participate and want everyone to have a good time, so they'll write in a special rule in the NOR that says they can also accept any boat they want if it doesn't qualify otherwise.
Some regattas (Key West for example), also have a 24ft minimum rule, which keeps all the small sport boats and dinghy's out.
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on September 04, 2011, 12:53:39 AM
It all depends on your region's PHRF rules. PHRF New England's only rule if you read them, is that you have to have a motor. Many have told me that you have to have a head, lifelines, etc. etc., but that's not true in this region. However, many PHRF regattas will require you to meet certain ISAF standards, which is usually cat 4 or cat 5. The Viper does meet cat 5 "inshore ocean racing" if you carry certain gear (anchor, a bucket, throwout line, air horn, etc.). Cat 4 is more serious and requires lifeline, bow and stern pulpits, etc.
Locally the SIs always read that boats have to carry minimum Coast Guard safety gear (which isn't much for us) and that boats must conform to class rules if there are any. That takes care of pretty much everything and allows everyone to race. It's only the offshore/coastal races that have any stiffer requirements.
Luke.
> At it's heart it's trying to solve a math problem using politics - a good recipe for failure.
The politics thing is overblown. And it isn't about math at all -- PHRF is an empirical system. The measurement rules are math problems.
At heart it is trying to come up with a single rating for each boat to be used for all race courses in all sea states and all wind conditions to make racing "fair enough" to have fun at. If you're in a locale where both the M24 and the Viper can be expected to spend a lot of time planing, the ratings should be closer together. If you're in a light air venue where neither boat will spend a lot of time planing they'll be a little farther apart. Off the wind the Viper will plane a little sooner than a M24, but in displacement mode the M24 has water line length. If you're sailing in waves, well, you tell me which boat has a better time in waves and that'll tell you what should happen to the ratings. There is a developing consensus that the Viper 640 should rate 9 - 12 seconds slower than a M24. I'd love to hear of "natural experiments" where a top M24 crew moves to a Viper and races his old buddies in a mixed fleet -- then impute a rating that would put them where they finished last season in their M24. That could be enlightening. Maybe there is some decent data from the UK's Portsmouth reporting too, I don't know.
As for PHRF committees "not liking" sport boats -- what they want, just like the rest of us, is more boats they can race with. It is simply wrong to make a PHRF Division with boats of wildly differing designs, and it is BEST for a PHRF Division to have at most a 60 second delta between the slowest and fastest boat in the division. In regattas and our buoy series, we put the sportboats in their own division -- they don't race the leadmines. The leadmine guys would rather we all bought leadmines and raced with them, of course. We wish all the M20 & M24 guys would buy Vipers. It is the same idea. Then there is the fact that a single number rating system can't really deal with boats that sail in two modes.
Bottom line: take the club level mixed-fleet racing for what it is. Be happy you have a "structured sailing activity" to have fun with. With what I'm hearing here (PHRF ratings about the same as the M24 in some locales) look at it like this: if you sail five mile races, a top Viper team should finish within about 60 real-time seconds of a top M24 team. If you think you're a top Viper team, go to a Viper regatta to find out. When you have some regatta results and club race results to compare, your local PHRF handicappers should be able to make adjustments, but it'll take a couple or three years.
Viper Ratings from US Sailing PHRF database book:
VIPER 640 ODR
BC SAILING 99 A 08 1
CARLYLE 106 B 09 2
CHESAPEAKE 96 C 08 5
EAST COAST CRS 96 A 05 0
EASTERN CONN 99 A 09 2
FLORIDA SUNCOAST 102 B 98 2
FORT WORTH 99 B 10 1
GALVESTON BAY 96 A 10 1
GULF PHRF 96 A 07 2
LAKE CHAMPLAIN 102 B 10 2
LAKE KEOWEE 100 A 03 1
LAKE ONTARIO 99 A 08 2
NARRAGANSETT BAY 108 A 96 1
NE FLORIDA 96 A 97 2
NEW ENGLAND 99 C 99 1
NO CALIFORNIA 96 B 10 2
NORTHERN ROCKIES 99 A 02 1
OKLAHOMA CITY 96 B 03 1
SO CALIFORNIA 111 A 08 8
SOUTH TEXAS 99 A 10 1
TEXOMA 99 A 04 1
YRALIS 96 C 09 0
Melges 24 from US Sailing PHRF data base:
MELGES 24 ODR
AUSTIN 105 A 95 2
CARLYLE 94 B 08 7
CHARLESTON 87 C 00 7
CHESAPEAKE 99 C 09 30
CHICAGO MORF 90 A 08 0
DETROIT 99 B 09 1
EAST COAST CRS 93 A 08 1
EASTERN CONN 90 B 10 5
ESSEX COUNTY 96 C 01 1
FLORIDA SUNCOAST 105 B 98 1
GALVESTON BAY 96 A 06 0
GULF PHRF 96 C 08 6
HARBOR ISLAND 99 B 04 0
LAKE ERIE 81 A 05 2
LAKE HURON 93 A 08 0
LAKE LANIER 87 C 02 8
LAKE MICHIGAN 90 C 09 6
LAKE MURRAY 87 B 97 2
LAKE ONTARIO 96 C 09 6
LAKE TAHOE 84 C 94 6
MID ATLANTIC 96 C 03 6
MONTEREY BAY 87 B 02 1
NARRAGANSETT BAY 99 B 05 1
NE FLORIDA 96 A 99 8
NEW ENGLAND 102 C 94 3
NO CALIFORNIA 84 C 09 40
NORTH CAROLINA 90 A 04 0
NORTHERN ROCKIES 99 A 00 1
NORTHWEST 99 C 09 6
NOVA SCOTIA 96 C 08 2
OKLAHOMA CITY 96 B 10 3
PERCY PRIEST 90 B 00 0
PICKWICK 105 B 94 1
PUERTO RICO 99 B 94 2
RUSH CREEK 96 A 97 1
SAN DIEGO 84 C 99 2
SE FLORIDA 90 C 96 11
SO CALIFORNIA 84 A 08 13
SOUTH ATLANTIC 87 C 96 1
SOUTH BAY CR 96 B 10 1
SOUTH TEXAS 96 B 10 1
VIRGIN ISLANDS 102 A 94 2
WEST FLORIDA 93 C 09 10
WESTERN CAROLINA 96 A 04 2
YRALIS 99 A 08 2
Thanks for the data!
I think the key to helping the Viper rating, is if people in the strong regions with multiple Vipers do what they can to get a better rating. In regions like ours (Lake Champlain), when I asked about our rating, they don't have enough to look at from our one Viper, so they just check other regions and make an average. I think the Marblehead guys need to do more with PHRF and get the rating right there, and the other regions with big fleets. Even though they have the luxury of OD, if they make inroads with PHRF, it helps the rest of us.
Thanks,
jason
Data from the US Sailing book is not quite correct. For example, the GULF (Gulf YAching Association) current PHRF for Viper 640 os 102, Meles 24 still at 96. This seems about right with a six second PHRF difference (in my opinion).
Craig
Mid-Atlantic PHRF has 2 Vipers registered at 102; Melges at 96.
Quote from: Thomas Leith on September 06, 2011, 11:17:16 PM
The politics thing is overblown. ...
...
As for PHRF committees "not liking" sport boats -- what they want, just like the rest of us, is more boats they can race with. It is simply wrong to make a PHRF Division with boats of wildly differing designs, and it is BEST for a PHRF Division to have at most a 60 second delta between the slowest and fastest boat in the division. In regattas and our buoy series, we put the sportboats in their own division -- they don't race the leadmines. The leadmine guys would rather we all bought leadmines and raced with them, of course.
...
Hah! Tell that the PHRF New England people...! LOL
They won't rate the Viper officially, and ban it from sanctioned PHRF New England regattas. This despite the fact that it actually meets all the PHRF NE rules, which are simply that it needs a motor which can drive the boat in flat water at the square root of the LOA in knots. They violate their own charter which says in the intro,
"It is the intent of PHRF-NE handicapping that any well-equipped, well-maintained, and well-sailed boat has a good chance to win; and that any boat that wins a PHRF-NE race is indeed well- equipped, well-maintained, and well-sailed."
and
"8.1.1 Only single hulled cruiser/racer boats will be issued official handicap certificates.. "
FWIW, I'm all for a sportboat class if need be.
I just got mine raised from 90p to 96p. The local committee used a rating of 84 from Charleston, given to that modified Viper of the past. They didn't used David Olivers rating from Columbia since he's on a lake. Most of these guys think sportboats go 12-16kts from start to finish, upwind, downwind and sideways. It sucks, but I agree with Olaf, at least we get to race. I can't race PHRF in the lower Cheasapeake...not allowed for the Black Seal Cup.
Dave
Come on down for WFORC Dave in October:
http://pensacolayachtclub.memberstatements.com/Clubs/CSG-PensacolaYachtClub/Uploaded/FacilityPics/Race%20Results/2011/NOR_WFORC2011b.pdf
Should be a hoot, can get you a 102 PHRF for that regatta.
Craig
That looks interesting. Most of the racing around here got cancelled due to Irene damage. How many boats do you expect? Any other Asym's? I'll have to check the calender.
Dave
Assortment of PHRF, good sailors, Great club! Three days of w/l's. The Flying Tigers show up for their own class. We should have Tripp 26's, Evelyn 32's, A Viper, maybe a Melges 20, Eliott 770 (maybe 2 of them) etc etc. Will keep you filled in. We do okay working the boat hard as we can against the sym rigged boats, just can't hike out off straps, but no motor required either.
Craig
Get me some more info, I'll see what I can do. I've been racing a Thompson 26 up here. I can beat him in a breeze, but he's tough in light air. Also racing a well sailed Etchell's too, damn thing just goes straight downwind...while I sail all kinds of angles trying to beat him...Would be fun to come down there for a few days.
Three days of sailing on Pensacola Bay in October? Better send me some info on that too.
Calender looking good for that weekend. email me when you get a chance. Actually, let me know what your fall/winter series looks like....maybe I'll just leave my boat down there and do several races with ya.
[email protected]
Gentleman, Ladies and Viper owners,
If you can articulate a clearly defined wish list for our class with regard to PHRF, I will carry it to the US Sailing PHRF Committee.
This consists of 14 members and two advisors. The secretary of the PHRF committee, Jim Walsh, is also the current Chairperson of US Sailings House of Delegates which is USS's 48 person congress. He is a good guy and we can certainly work with him to create a better enviroment for sport boats.
FWIW, you can point out to your local PHRF measurer that the median handicap for the Viper in one design format as stated in the US Sailing PHRF handbook is 102. They need to articulate why local conditions strongly favor the Viper if you are less than that.
FWIW, I agree with Tom Leith that there are a great number of PHRF measurers and volunteers who would love to see more boats on the line. They want to group boats of similar performance together. If we help them find a way to include sport boats in a fair way in PHRF regattas....they will appreciate it.
And to build a bit on Justin's comment, apropos this:
> so they just check other regions and make an average
I perfectly well understand why some PHRF committees want to do something simpleminded. But!
Point out to them that right in the front matter of the red white & blue book (they'll know what that is) it tells them specifically that taking an average (i.e. arithmetic mean) of ratings can lead to a poor result, and the better statistic to use is the median. This doesn't come from me, it doesn't come from you, it comes from the PHRF technical leadership and it is in black & white.
So the simpleminded and not-too-bad thing to do if the "anchor" sportboat at your local club is the M24
1) Subtract the median M24 rating from the median Viper rating from all clubs*
2) Add that delta to the local club's M24 rating to get the Viper rating
This is the mostest simplest thing to do and frankly should be fair enough period for a mixed fleet race. But if you're at SF Bay, you may want to squeeze the ratings closer together by 3 or if you're at Chesapeake you may want to widen the delta by 3 -- that might be a little fairer. Maybe. If they don't want to do this bit, forget about it and go sailing. Three seconds per nautical mile is PHRF's "just noticeable difference" and is basically is no difference at all. FWIW, SoCal seems extreme to me at 27 s/nmi delta.
*always ignore clubs reporting "zero" boats when finding medians.
Justin says:
> If you can articulate a clearly defined wish list for our class with regard to PHRF,
> I will carry it to the US Sailing PHRF Committee.
Well, if VPP output for M24 & M20 & Viper & whatever else is available, maybe this could be sanity-checked against the PHRF ratings (or vice-versa) and make some recommendations. But this files in the face of the PHRF ethos.
> If we help them find a way to include sport boats in a fair way
> in PHRF regattas....they will appreciate it.
The only way to do this that will be seen as "fair" is to move the sport boats into their own division. Mainly you'll want to get boats that plane into a division separate from boats that don't no matter what the numerical value of their ratings happen to be. So in a pinch, ULDBs like Olson 30 & Hobie 33 could be in this division as well. Maybe the J-92s. Mixing in the ULDBs is a bit of a stretch but not horrible. These guys won't like racing with M24 & Vipers though -- they claim it isn't fair (and it is fair they should race with J-105???)
^ that won't work, J24, 22s, 30s 35s 37s etc all plane if you get them going fast enough. About the only boats that won't are shields and 12m... :lol:
just group like boats with like boats and come to grips with the way PHRF works (no wind factor) is that lighter plaining boats win in heavier air and displacement boats win in the light... If you sail in one or the other 99% of the time then maybe consider an adjustment.
Quote from: Justin Scott on September 08, 2011, 11:08:39 PM
If you can articulate a clearly defined wish list for our class with regard to PHRF, I will carry it to the US Sailing PHRF Committee.
Let's start with PHRF-NE dropping the "U".
While it's not in their bylaws, it says in their faq:
Quote
What is meant by Unofficial Handicap? Official PHRF New England Handicaps are given to true cruiser/racer type boats. In general this means that the boat has the equipment required by the Offshore Racing Council Equipment for Category 4. A quick indication of likely conformance is if the boat has furniture inside. It must also have auxiliary power.
In cases where the boat is not a true cruiser/racer, an Unofficial Handicap may be given. This assists clubs that might allow a boat to race more informal races. These Unofficial Handicaps can never be used in a serious race. If the Notice of Race says that ORC Cat 4 equipment is required, the Unofficial Handicap is not acceptable.
as quoted earlier, the bylaws say:
Quote
Preamble: "It is the intent of PHRF-NE handicapping that any well-equipped, well-maintained, and well-sailed boat has a good chance to win; and that any boat that wins a PHRF-NE race is indeed well- equipped, well-maintained, and well-sailed."
and
"8.1.1 Only single hulled cruiser/racer boats will be issued official handicap certificates.. "
Clearly there is some someone's personal twist of the rules here...
> group like boats with like boats and come to grips
> with the way PHRF works (no wind factor)
Right. Do the best you can to do and go sail. Especially since PHRF has ho wind factor, it works really well for windspeeds between about 8 & 16. Outside that range it falls apart even if you do manage to make "good" divisions. In the light stuff, the best light air crews will win (almost) regardless of their rating -- above 16 the best boat-handling crews will win.
PHRF works remarkably well given what it is -- so yeah, come to grips with what it is and go have fun with it. I guess bitching about PHRF is fun, but listening to skippers bitching about PHRF is not fun, so don't do it.
I'm just sick of giving time to a J/92 that always waterlines us. They rate 105, and we rate 102. I tried the M24 delta argument, but the number of regions that LC PHRF cross-compares with is small and don't necessarily all I'm hoping next year we can put together a sportboat fleet.
jason
It gets even better...!
Now PHRF NE is only are rating boats that have furniture...!! WTF.
Quote
http://www.phrfne.org/page/594/1155/
Fall Governor's Meeting
November 15, 2006
A discussion of lifelines ended with a possible recommendation that the 2007 Championships be at the ORC Category 5 level, where lifelines are recommended but not required.
--
http://www.phrfne.org/page/594/6154/
Fall 2010 Governor's Meeting
November 11, 2010
The use of "Unofficial" certificates was discussed. This was brought about by the New Bedford Yacht Club accepting a Viper 640 into the Buzzard's Bay Regatta (that was me -Olaf). Historically, the unofficial designation was brought about by the lack of lifelines, among other things. Now since many races use ORC Cat 5 Equipment Regulations, that do not require life lines, this old definition needs some rework. A new proposal will be brought to the Spring meeting. It will likely apply the "Unofficial" designation to those boats with no cruising accomodations. However, in the end, it is up to the race organizer to determine what boat entries are accepted in a race.
--
http://www.phrfne.org/page/594/6713/
Spring 2011 Governor's Meeting
March 31, 2011
Previously the "Unofficial" handicap notation was given to all boats without lifelines. Now that many races are conducted under Offshore Equipment Regulation 5, which does not require lifelines, we will use a new definition. Now the unofficial designation will be given to handicaps for one design boats that do not have more than a minimal amount of furniture and auxiliary power.
> Let's start with PHRF-NE dropping the "U".
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Because of bylaw 8.1 it seems to me that if you get your wish PHRF-NE will simply decline altogether to issue a rating for the Viper, M-24, J-22, etc., even for "informal" racing. That would be simplest for them and won't hurt them in the least.
Look, unless they change their bylaws, Vipers (M-24s, SR Max & so on) will NEVER be in the PHRF-NE class. (You do realize that PHRF regions are classes according to the RRS, don't you?)
> I'm hoping next year we can put together a sportboat fleet.
Great! Run your own under Portsmouth. Use the UK version if you think it is better than the US version. Or use one of the VPP measurement rules. It isn't that hard. Decide which boats you'll permit into your class. You can probably get LC (or any local club) to have a start for your class in a racing division right along with their normal racing program; they'll probably be happy to record the finish times for you, you'll just do your own scoring and buy your own awards (if you want them). But don't expect them to provide crash boats for you -- your safety will be your problem.
Then you can be the target of skippers bitching about whatever rating system you choose and you'll start writing forum posts like this one.
Quote from: Thomas Leith on September 09, 2011, 10:19:43 AM
> Let's start with PHRF-NE dropping the "U".
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Because of bylaw 8.1 it seems to me that if you get your wish PHRF-NE will simply decline altogether to issue a rating for the Viper, M-24, J-22, etc., even for "informal" racing. That would be simplest for them and won't hurt them in the least.
Look, unless they change their bylaws, Vipers (M-24s, SR Max & so on) will NEVER be in the PHRF-NE class. (You do realize that PHRF regions are classes according to the RRS, don't you?)
Well, you bring up the full gamut of issues here, boiling right down to what the point of PHRF and USS is. It's to PROMOTE SAILING.
When you have an organization going rogue, like these guys, it discourages sailing. In fact, that's a key reason USS has an appeals process over the local outfits, which while they get to operate independently, are still bound to and sanctioned by USS PHRF.
I love buoy racing with the Viper class. However, I also love PHRF racing, be it on my boat or others (like the Hendo, formerly Juan Mauri's boat, which doesn't have furniture as it turns out... sh-t, what are we going to do now...??!).
Why do I love it? It's different. It's distance racing. It's a bit of a Solomon vs. Goliath thing. It's an opportunity to sail the boat really hot for long distances. The parties are good. I have a lot of PHRF friends.
I do -hate- hypocrisy though:
- PHRF NE is the only PHRF outfit that won't rate small sportboats
- Fortunately they have no authority over any regattas except the one they run directly (PHRF NE Championships)
- Their "policy" of who they'll rate and won't is completely informal and violates their own charter and bylaws
- They're making up sh-t as they go along to suit themselves.
It's one thing to have "your own little club", but that's not what PHRF is about.
My 2 cents.
Tom, you're a PHRF handicapper on Lake Carlyle or such?
> It's one thing to have "your own little club", but that's not what PHRF is about.
Really? I hate whiners. They make sailboat racing a total drag and organizing sailboat racing a much bigger PITA than it needs to be.
Every PHRF region *is* its own self-governing racing class. It can be little or big depending on where it is. The purposes of each class might be different. The way each class pursues its purposes might be different. Instead of whining, you can "promote sailing" by administering a class that is more fun for people who own small boats. As a side effect, sailing among big boat owners will be better promoted because they won't have to listen to your whining and getting beaten by boats they don't think they should be competing against in the first place.
> I do -hate- hypocrisy though
I also hate people using words they don't know the meanings of. Alanis Morissette hasn't got this excuse, but maybe you're not a native speaker and I should cut you some slack. Nothing on your list of "offenses" is hypocrisy and I don't see anything they're doing which might be described as "rogue". The don't have to rate boats they don't want in their class. Of course they don't have authority over regattas they don't organize. You yourself have demonstrated that their policy of who they'll rate and won't is reviewed at board meetings of the class association, minutes taken and disseminated quite publicly, and is guided very well by their charter and bylaws, especially bylaw 8.1.
I am a member of the Carlyle Yacht Club's Regatta Committee, which maintains PHRF ratings for whosoever requests one at Carlyle Lake (in southwestern Illinois) subject, of course, to our policy about which boats we will and won't rate. We report our ratings to USPHRF, pay the fees and the rest. I have suggested we not rate M-24s and Vipers, but the M-24 & Viper owners are well-enough satisfied with PHRF and there is no appetite for learning the details of another rating system at the present time. So long as regatta organizers separate sport boats from cruiser/racers everyone is happy enough. Except for the owners who think PHRF is a golf handicapping system or wish it was, or want an unfair advantage over others, or want to be the biggest fish in the smallest pond, or any number of other things, but those are other rants.
With all due respect, Tom, I think that's a bunch of BS, though you're entitled to your opinion.
What does this have to do with "whining"? I'm documenting what "is the fact".
Moreover, the premise that we should go out and start our on new PHRF-like thing when PHRF so well established in this region is also completely ludicrous. Fortunately, most of the regattas I want to sail my Viper in are accommodating and are indeed interested in having as many boats and as much fun as possible, much to PHRF-NE's chagrin apparently. I just want to sail without this undertone of being "unofficial" in this region, especially when it's condoned _everywhere else_.
By the way I am a native born American. Maybe it's not clear what the hypocrisy here is:
It is when you publish a set of bylaws and agree to adhere to some overseeing sanctioning body's charter, and then in the back room adjust and apply your own personal agenda to administering things.
hy?poc?ri?sy
noun \hi-ˈp?-krə-sē also hī-\
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2: an act or instance of hypocrisy
I don't know if one can be "boat bigot", though maybe that's another way to put it. But if one is, at least say so.
I suppose PHRF-NE could change their bylaws to explain exactly what they'll exclude, but that assuredly won't happen because then there WILL be a sh-t storm of protest since it will be clear to everyone (Viper owners and otherwise) that PHRF-NE is some sort of exclusive thing. You'd be surprised how many people are glad to see me out there sometimes.
There is no doubt that PHRF breaks down based on conditions on any given day. That's part of it. I agree it is "whining" when someone is consistently going on about how their rating is a few points from fair, as opposed to just going out and sailing faster. PHRF here is a fun activity though, and most boat owners get that. However, PHRF NE should keep their noses out of it and just make sure the ratings are consistent.
Okay guys, enough. This discussion heading over the edge, and we really try to keep that sort of stuff out of our forum. So please, PLEASE, agree to disagree and move on.
> I just want to sail without this undertone of being "unofficial" in this region
It isn't an undertone -- it is up front and explicit, evidently by design. And see below.
> I suppose PHRF-NE could change their bylaws to explain exactly what they'll exclude
They have already said what they will IN-clude (Bylaw 2.1, arguably 2.2, and 8.1.1) and evidently don't find it necessary to describe the complementary set. A Viper ain't a cruiser or a racer/cruiser. Period. That's the fact driving the decisions there.
It seems they're considering amending their bylaws -- if you want to be under the PHRF-NE umbrella now's the time. I think you're on the right track to try to organize a sportboat fleet, get yourself named Governor and a friend of yours named Handicapper, and then you can be in the room when the bylaws are updated and the ratings are generated. Of course, it looks to me like they define "fleet" geographically, not by boat-type. It will help if you quit calling them names and impugning their motivations in a public forum. I'd approach one or more of the board members and ask them whether they'd be open to something along these lines, (sportboats per se, non-geographic fleet) what the objections are going to be and so-forth. I'd do that this weekend. Lots of stuff in their bylaws will have to be updated to accommodate you. If this or that regatta organizer wants to keep you out of a division in a big regional regatta, they can have a SA/D limit or some such in their NOR and make you bring enough boats for a sportboat-only division. It can be made to "work" within limits and PHRF-NE can drop the word you object to. Best of luck.
The point is this:
Here you have the predominant racing organization in this area _excluding_ certain boats that are certainly very similar to others which they don't exclude (e.g. RP 30, Hendo, J80, Melges 24/32, etc), for sketchy, evolving reasons. Furthermore, all the other nearly identical organizations in the US who subscribe to the same overall charter DO NOT exclude these boats. That's not good for the sport in this region and begs to question the motivations of the decision makers.
So where to you draw the line then? Use the same line as everyone else.
I'm reviving this thread. I would love to hear any reports of updates to the Viper rating in any regions. I am going to try to appeal our 102 rating on Lake Champlain to try to get 108 or 111 for this light wind lake. Melges 24 is 99 here.
Personally, I am sick of giving time to a pair of J/92 boats at 105 who don't need it.
Thanks,
jason
If the Melges 24 is at 99, your 108 - 111 range is about right.
Are you racing in the same division with the J-92??
Jason. I race at 111 on Lake George. With most racing on we'd night with winds at 8 or less wind speed and not square race courses, this rating is fair. This year I crossed the finish line 1st in 12 of 16 races, and only won 4 of them on ct. Race against 2 j80s, j24s and j22s. Good luck
Quote from: Thomas Leith on September 11, 2012, 11:37:51 PM
If the Melges 24 is at 99, your 108 - 111 range is about right.
Are you racing in the same division with the J-92??
Our Spin B class consists of the lighter keelboats with little or no furniture, including many J/29s, a couple of J/92 boats, one J/92s, a J/80, a Melges 20 when they feel like coming out, and us. We don't have enough sportboats for our own class yet. Oh, and toughest of all, Etchells on weekend races where they don't need their 126 rating to win boat for boat many times.
jason
No doubt, I get Henry Frazier's Etchell's at a 120 phrf in NC. No fun in less than 10kts
PHRF 96 in Detroit. Melges 24 rate 99. Light to moderate winds with short steep chop. Ouch
Ouch! Since so much of PHRF is each region seeing what other regions do, I think it would be good for the boat and the class if each of us tries to make an appeal over the winter this year. It would be great to have a common reference that we could compare the Viper too, and maybe not another sportboat. For me it might be the J/29 or the J/80.
I've been thru two appeals before, getting the C&C 99 from 102 to 105 and then 108.
I may even include in my appeal that the PHRF group take a look at all the sportboat ratings. The Melges 20 was getting killed at 111, and basically stopped racing. We will have one or two J/70s next year, and I hope they get a fair rating too. Perhaps on Sailing Anarchy, sportboat folks could come up with a fair speed ranking of the various North American sporboats so we all have a chance of getting rated fairly.
Good luck!
jason
It is basically impossible to rate a Viper fairly versus a boat like the J-29 -- the designs are just too different and they ought never be raced in the same division. Sometimes though it is impossible to run them in different divisions and we just have to accept the limitations (or not race). The best we can do in our part of the world is use the Melges 24 as the reference and try to rate "similar" boats like the Viper and the Melges 20 versus the "well accepted" rating for the Melges 24. It seems to us the Viper 640 should rate somewhere around Melges 24 + 9. Here's another criterion: if six seconds a mile would make a big difference in your SEASON you might have grounds for an appeal of your rating. Anything more than that: shut up and go sail and be glad you have something resembling a competition.
Lake Michigan is rating the J-80 at 114 base and it is a 26 footer. In lighter air I think it'll waterline a Viper to death. In medium air things should even out some. In heavy air, it is all about boat handling and to some extent anyway the rating goes out the window.
In NC, I started with a 90, same as a M24...after 2 years I appealled and was give a 96. I don't like it but it will do.....
Type of course makes a difference....some area's do modified Olympics or even a triangle. All I get are W/L's....
Hey guys, I'm reviving this thread.
I'm about to submit a fresh PHRF form for my next Viper, and I don't think I have all the measurements that they want. We already have a rating from the other Vipers on the lake, but I'd like to get this all this data if possible. The length and displacement and such are on the site, but I don't know where the class or Rondar list the other dimensions.
http://www.mbbc-vt.org/phrf/PHRFForm.pdf
Thanks,
jason
Quote from: Jason Hyerstay on March 30, 2013, 10:42:16 PM
Hey guys, I'm reviving this thread.
I'm about to submit a fresh PHRF form for my next Viper, and I don't think I have all the measurements that they want. We already have a rating from the other Vipers on the lake, but I'd like to get this all this data if possible. The length and displacement and such are on the site, but I don't know where the class or Rondar list the other dimensions.
http://www.mbbc-vt.org/phrf/PHRFForm.pdf
Thanks,
jason
TC guys should have the various IJPE, prod, etc.
Your sailmaker has your girth measurements ;-)
Here are measurements from our current Gulf Yachting Association (GYA) PHRF Certificate:
Note: Measurements in feet
Sprit 14.3 (this is a "extended J measurement" if you will, not acttual sprit lenght)
LOA 21.08
LWL 19.08
BEAM 8.17
J 8.03
I 21.82
ISC 24.45
P 25.62
E 10.0
LP%J 102
Spin Luff, 31.89
Spin Leach 23.95
Spin Foot 19.19
Max Girth 18.04
Sq Foot Genoa 87sqft
Sq Foot Spin 425sqft
SA/DSPL Ratio 51.1
We rate 102 in GYA PHRF, our Hobie 33 rates 99.
A Melges 24 rates 96
GYA PHRF site if you wanna compare numbers: http://www.gya-phrf.com/
On average it seems the Viper should rate around 6-9 seconds "slower" then a Melges 24.
On a side note the GYA uses recommended crew # / weight limits for key events. Funny that our Viper640 Max crew limit is 7 / 1260lbs
Thanks Craig!
For this form, I still need:
ISP (Spin halyard height)
ASMG (Asymmetrical mid-girth) - is this the same as max?
BS (Bow Sprit Length)
And I already emailed Dave N about this, but what year would #18 be?
Oh, and who/what is the "Make" if the "Model" is Viper 640?
Thanks!
jason
Ok, I got some more numbers from Dave N.:
ISP = 24.05
ASMG = 18.05
And I figured these out from the rules
BS = 6.23
LP in feet = 7.22
I think I got it!
I goofed
Our Viper Rates 96
Our Hobie 33 Rates 99
Melges 24's around here rate 93
96? thought you guys got a 102 gift last year? I was moving to Florida.....
Melges are 90 in NC, Vipers 96
With the M24 @ 93, the Viper @ 102 is the midpoint of the reasonable range of deltas -- we think Vipers should rate 6 -- 12 seconds slower than the M24, depending on locale (wind & sea states typically seen) and assuming they race in the same division. If you get a rating anywhere in this range it is "fair enough" to go have a good time. And I reiterate what I said about this last September. Don't be a whiner, go sail and have fun.
What region has the 81 rating? I spoke to my local rep, and he quoted our range as 81-111, and that 81 really drags down the average.
jason
That's a Viper that was highly modified down in Charleston years ago. My local PHRF uses that as a low number too and I call BS on it. I don't think the boat sails anymore, but it's rating lives on.
Legend has it that boat was so overpowered that only some of those Texans would try to sails it.....JJ would for sure!
Does anyone have a PHRF contact down there? Can we just have it removed from their database and let any new owner apply from scratch with proper details?
BTW, here is the PHRF form I submitted, minus my address info:
Quote from: Jason Hyerstay on April 08, 2013, 01:49:12 PM
What region has the 81 rating? I spoke to my local rep, and he quoted our range as 81-111, and that 81 really drags down the average.
jason
We have spoken to them, written to them, spoken to the preparer of the PHRF handbook to no avail. The Viper in question had a traveller, a taller custom carbon mast, oversized sails etc. It has been retrofitted to One Design and is part of the fleet again but Charleston judges Vieprs on that boat. Feel free to have another go. Meanwhile most of us just tell our local PHRF cttee that it was not a Viper and ask them to drop it out.
I started at 96 and filed an appeal had it changed to 102. Had to jump through a lot of hoops but they agreed.
Question about Viper vs. M24:
This spring we're racing in the same PHRF class with them. Last night was 15 knots with 1-2' chop, straight W/L course, about 30 minute race time total. We struggled to really hang with the leaders upwind and were generally fine d/w, ending both actual and adjusted in mid-fleet.
Up here we're racing 111 and M24's are 99. Just trying to figure out whether in those conditions we should have been doing better against them...
It was our first night out, new crew, rig tune was probably 80%, blah blah blah, but wondering...
Thanks
Doug Stumberger 174
Sounds pretty good to me. Hang in there.
Rating update from Southwest FL... (West Florida PHRF)
Viper640 = 102
Melges 24 = 93
J70 = 117
VX1 = 111
Melbourne area is still 96. Rob Bernard and I are going to try and get the same rating as the Vipers in Miami (102 I believe) once we take delivery of our Viper. We could use the better rating considering the closest boats to our rating is J/24s and a few J/30s.
If it makes you boys feel any better when I had my Melges 24 in Hawaii they rated us 75. I owed a J/33 time.......
In lake Michigan (area 3 anyhow) we rate 96 and M24 rates 92 I believe.
In Vancouver, PHRF-BC has the following:
M24 - 99
Viper 640 - 99 (no OB)
Viper 640 - 108 (with OB)
J 70 - 125
Cheers,
John
John,
That seems unfair.
This may help: http://www.viper640.org/the-viper-640/handicap-information/64-phrf-ratings
The Viper is typically owed about 9 seconds by a Melges 24 which is faster than a Viper in all conditions except a complete drifter. < 3 knots.
Justin, you do realize that in WLIS, Vipers GIVE 3 seconds a mile to M24s, right? Perhaps the most brutal rating in the country. Even with J/105s (both at 96), Soverel 33s at 90, M24s at 99, and for the record, J/70s are at 117 (which I'm ok with - I think they have trouble sailing to that rating in most conditions). Not a lot of data though to mount a significant rating challenge and the couple of PHRF events I did this year did very little to give support that our rating should be different (though we didn't have any M24s to play with since there's only 1-2 on WLIS in general and/or that race, or race PHRF). Best conditions for the Viper rating seem to be less than 8 kts and very shifty since the Viper won't lose as much as a heavier boat tacking to play each shift. In those conditions. In sub 5 kts, we were as quick or quicker than a well sailed Soverel 33, which is generally an excellent light air boat. Don't have any data from 10+ kts
Quote from: Justin Scott on August 17, 2013, 03:15:49 PM
John,
That seems unfair.
This may help: http://www.viper640.org/the-viper-640/handicap-information/64-phrf-ratings
The Viper is typically owed about 9 seconds by a Melges 24 which is faster than a Viper in all conditions except a complete drifter. < 3 knots.
Thanks Justin,
I'm not thrilled with it but it's PHRF and for 9 seconds/mile I will definitely be buying an OB now.
Except for Wednesday nights and a few other regattas the Melges 24's race OD here and we'll see what interest we can drum up for the Viper in September as we're having a Demo Day followed by another in Seattle so hopefully we can establish a few more boats in the PNW.
Cheers,
John
I am pretty happy with 102 right now. We have beaten all boats In the fleet in planing weather. There is no longer at Melges 24 on the lake.
Quote from: Jason Hyerstay on August 18, 2013, 09:58:38 PM
I am pretty happy with 102 right now. We have beaten all boats In the fleet in planing weather. There is no longer at Melges 24 on the lake.
Ouch...salt on the wound for John L. I think its pretty safe to say that he would be "pretty happy" with 102.
If PHRF was logical then it wouldn't be PHRF.
My favorite system is the Wednesday night series run by BYC in Marblehead. The winner each Weds picks up a 36 second a mile penalty the following week, declines to an 18 second a mile the following week and so on. It usually means that 3 boats are carrying penalties and anyone who sails reasonably well has a shot at the podium (which is what its all about) and anyone with a gift rating picks up the 36 second again pretty quickly.
My favorite guy on the race course was Ralph Carlton (my ex-accountant, and founder of the Marblehead Sailing Center) who lifted the skill of finishing second to a higher art form. You can always trust an accountant to figure out the numbers! He's 85+ and still at it. Although I noticed that he got a bit sloppy last year and picked up a bullet half way thru the season, scoring a 6 th and 4th the following two Wednesdays and losing the series by two points.
"Vipers GIVE 3 seconds a mile to M24s, right? Perhaps the most brutal rating in the country" -Beardsley
In Detroit, viper=96. M24=102
Ouch
Quote from: Steve Conger on August 20, 2013, 10:11:15 AM
In Detroit, viper=96. M24=102
Ouch
Yep, that's definitely worse. Plus there are actually some good M24 sailors from the Detroit area...how did that rating happen?!?
That's brutal!
Time to take a trip to one of the PHRF rating meetings. Show them this thread and review the finishes for both the Viper and M24 in your area.
If the Viper has been beating the M24, you're screwed. If not, appeal the rating.
APPEAL APPEAL APPEAL!!! Be relentless. We had to do that here in PHRF MA and finally got the viper rating changed. I had to be relentless/border line pain in the a-- to make head way. You have to understand most PHRF organizations are made up of volunteers. They will not do anything unless you make a big enough stink about it. They will gladly take your money tho when it comes time to renew. Keep that in mind and keep appealing/writing emails. You want them to be so sick of you they finally change it just so you will stop.
I compiled a matrix from the 2016 US Sailing PHRF Book that just came out, with Melges 24, Viper 640, VX One, Rocket 22, and Melges 20 all compared to the J/70.
Let me know if you see any mistakes. I hope this helps!
Edit: Updated with newest version of the file:
http://lcyc.info/files/PHRF%20Sportboat%20Matrix.pdf
Hey Jason,
Just for reference, BC Sailing does a standard base rating and then applies credits or penalties so in OD trim we rate 108 with a 9 second credit for having an outboard vs. the Melges 24 at 99. We don't have any J70's or Melges 20's.
Cheers,
John
I've also taken a look at the Sports Boat Measurement System (SMS) used by the Australian Sports Boat Association. It has the Viper at 0.778 and a Melges at 0.800 which near as I can figure out is about 15 seconds/mile difference. The J70 is 0.726 and VX One is 0.771.
See http://www.asba.org.au/current-sms-ratings/
Sounds like 70's are much faster Down Under than they are here?? Gravity difference?? LOL
What's interesting is the rule is for sport boats between 5.8m and 8.5m that have a minimum rating (Time Correction Factor) of 0.755 and J70's do not rate high enough under the rule but have been allowed. The VX One apparently has to add an extension to meet minimum length.
We did scoring on both SMS and PHRF for about three years, but stopped. The sample size for J/70s in Australia is too small for a reliable rating, IMO. PHRF is just easier and I'm on our PHRF committee, so we have pretty reasonable sportboat ratings.