Saw this on SA:
A well-known creator, with a solid plan to build ultralight sporties in big volumes at prices lower than anyone would expect here in the good ole? US of A? You betcha?and he?s got funding. We?ll have more in a week or two, but the details are exciting indeed. The boat ain?t bad either.
The boat looks very Viper-like.
I also heard some rumors of something being doing down at Rondar HQ.
Anyone heard anything? Could be unrelated of course.
Word on the street, it is not a Viper.
It is 19 ft long and lighter weight.
Sort of a 29er with some lead.
Looks like a two-person boat with a self-tacking jib.
If it ain't a Viper, Brian should sue em! How could anything be closer and not a Viper?
Is this the non class approved "Viper" that Brian has been talking about building recently? Will this have any effect on any plans to build Vipers in the US?
This is a 19ft boat. Called the VX-One. To be built in Georgia, USA.
Self Tacking, roller furling jib.
Single pull kite (like some beach cats)
Quote from: Zach Freeborn on March 17, 2011, 04:36:06 PM
Is this the non class approved "Viper" that Brian has been talking about building recently? Will this have any effect on any plans to build Vipers in the US?
Definitely not. Brian wisely tacked away from the idea of building a rogue Viper and has designed something different. Aimed at the dinghy market instead of the keelboat market. Should be an interesting boat, but it's certainly not a Viper.
And I don't see any reason this should effect plans to build Vipers in the US. That's a whole different set of discussions.
I think this is a mountain being made out of a mole hill. This rendering was done by a random guy who took a boat and made it Viper esque.
Also a two man viper pretty much is a K6. Why would you bother to go and try yet another start up in the same area. I expect Brian will put out something remarkably different, just like he did with the Viper 640 and 830 in the 90's.
Instead of building a boat that will compete with Rondar/Viper for market share, Brian could have started a business that competes with Super Spars.
CST, Forte or any one of numerous CF winding job shops could supply tubing, then finished rigs could be made for Vipers and other boats.
Eventually he could buy his own CNC winder (new Mclean Anderson Super Hornet only about 100K) and make his own tubing.
Launching a new one-design is a "tough row" with this economy and so many competitors.
Anyone remember the SB3?
Funny you mention forte, I have been told they can wind tubes and assemble masts that are identical to our current ones. It's not rocket science.
The only way the vx will threaten vipers market share is if the staus quo is allowed to continue. Unhappy owners and worried prospective buyers will see this boat as a viable option. The two person aspect will hurt it down here but as I said, current issues on mast, parts and lead times with new boat orders will certainly open the door.
I do not believe it is brian's intent to hurt the viper. In fact he was in new Orleans with us last weekend taking pictures and helping support the viper fleet. He took a newer rondar back to his shop after the event to sort out a keel issue... I believe the keel was not straight in the boat?
This should be viewed as an opportunity, not a threat. He has already set up shop in Savannah and has solid financial backing.
All builders compete for the sailing dollars available.
My search for the right boat started with the J80, then progressed through several other boats, Colgate, J22, SB3 & M20 as I worked my way down in size to the Viper. Someday I might fancy an Island Packet.
Other buyers might work their way up from a Laser.
If Brian's boat sells, it will divert some Viper sales.
Now is not a great time to try to break into the one-design market.
The existing boats all have fleet and regetta momentum.
A 19 footer won't cost substantially less than a Viper.
Material costs will soon be going up and up. You can expect everything to cost substanially more in the years ahead.
A container load of Vipers might actually be a good investment right now.
The Zenda boys will tell you a new boat launch takes about $600K.
Do you happen to know where BB will get his masts?
FYI, if you were really desperate to repair a mast, GMT in Bristol RI can hand wrap a single tube to your specs.
Our resin went up about 25 percent in the last two months, I feel ya. But minus the lead there's only about 500 lbs in the viper and most of it is glass which is not going up. So an increase in material cost is incidental.
The vx will have a southern rig, at least that is my understanding
The boat looks like a ton-o-fun to me. MH kite will make it very sporty in the breeze..especially two up. I suspect this will limit it's appeal in windy spots...most of the guys with skiff skills in the big breeze sail skiffs. Should be a rocket in 10-15.
Brian has solid relationships with C-Tech and Southern...toss up. Both great sticks.
This boat will certainly compete with the K6 but is much more skiffy than that boat, especially with the MH kite. I'm interested to see if a rig tensioner is in the plan.
Can't wait to sail one :-D
Drew,
You know all the builders, besides Forte, who builds Viper size masts in the USA?
Quote from: Terry Phillips on March 19, 2011, 11:50:03 AM
Drew,
You know all the builders, besides Forte, who builds Viper size masts in the USA?
Mmm. Interesting sidebar.
There's a guy building DN sticks who could do it, but probably unreliable over the long haul.
Southern USA, Ben Hall, Selden, Ballenger can all do it....substantially more $$
Couple of specialty stick builders in some fleets, A-Cats, ETC...that could do it. Much more $$
My fav choice is having Alex buy tubes from Kilwell and build the sticks at C-Tech though he probably will require a carbon spreader set...huge issue with existing spars.
There's some other options that we're working on that I don't want to jinx. Hope to reprot back positive stuff in the next few weeks.
Is Super Spars not interested in our business?
Isn't the threat of going else where enough to get them to buck their ideas up?
Quote from: Matt Sole on March 22, 2011, 09:20:22 PM
Is Super Spars not interested in our business?
Isn't the threat of going else where enough to get them to buck their ideas up?
Has anyone from the class actually contacted them and made our concerns known? Directly.
As Craig says, its the VX 19.
Brian can pursue his vision.
The Viper class can pursue our vision.
On LIS, we compete with the K6 in an amicable way. If the K6 had not been in the fray, there would have been 15+ Vipers at AYC. If the Viper had not been available, Larchmont, IHYC etc would have chosen K6s. The Viper class will be competing with the VX19 but it is a different boat with a very different vision of audience & class organization etc.
More pics and specs available if u're interested.
I thought I got a copy of a letter you sent last year ago as class president.
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 23, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
Quote from: Matt Sole on March 22, 2011, 09:20:22 PM
Is Super Spars not interested in our business?
Isn't the threat of going else where enough to get them to buck their ideas up?
Has anyone from the class actually contacted them and made our concerns known? Directly.
I don't know Matt. I have no idea jsut how many masts they build a year...overall.
Doesn't matter. We need to either fix the problem with them or work around them.
Moving to another tube builder is an option, but that'll require a year to test against the existing spar/tubes. As I previously stated, the class doesn't want to get into the same dealio that M24 went with Southern/Omohundro when Omo bought Southern. Two masts a pretty different, yet appear identical.
I know that Alex at C-Tech would love to build the rig. Very capable. He wants to use carbon spreaders though....big change.
It was draft that I submitted to the incoming exec, trying to capture the points that you and I wanted to make. Since the new exec had already been elected, it is only right that they run with this.
I'm retired but I think the plan is to have a conference call with super spar and agree some very clear benchmarks that they can meet. (IMO that should include carrying inventory in North America by a set date). That seems like a constructive plan to me.
I think the consensus is that we would all like to be sailing with the same mast and the superspar mast does the job well (I still have mast #2). But (a) The lead time for replacement masts is ridiculously long and (b) They need a rap on the knuckles re the batch of 6 masts that arrived with attachment tangs in wrong place so that QC for viper class is high on their priorities.
Optimum result is that they respond to constructive criticism and come back with specific proposals. But they understand that if they can't meet benchmarks, then there is other mast supplier who would like the contract.
Until they get the constructive criticism directly from the class, and understand that the class can direct our builder to use another mast (and that is a differeance between Viper and VX19), then the process hasnt started. FWIW, we are in good hands with a very competent TC chair and a pro active President.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on March 23, 2011, 11:20:43 AM
I thought I got a copy of a letter you sent last year ago as class president.
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 23, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
Quote from: Matt Sole on March 22, 2011, 09:20:22 PM
Is Super Spars not interested in our business?
Isn't the threat of going else where enough to get them to buck their ideas up?
Has anyone from the class actually contacted them and made our concerns known? Directly.
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 23, 2011, 11:57:26 AM
I'm retired but I think the plan is to have a conference call with super spar and agree some very clear benchmarks that they can meet. (IMO that should include carrying inventory in North America by a set date). That
A good benchmark for me would be getting my rig over here in less than 3 months (or better).
Let's see if it can be done.
So is this priority number one for the exec committee? If not it should be.
We should receive from Super Spars a letter of intent to commit to the class, supplying high quality masts in a timely fashion and also keeping a stock of masts and parts in the US.
We should give them a chance to resolve the issues before we look else where.
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 23, 2011, 10:32:32 AM
More pics and specs available if u're interested.
I am interested and suspect others are, too. Good to know what our designer is up to. Please post VX pics and specs.
Quote from: Charlie Visser on March 23, 2011, 01:34:00 PM
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 23, 2011, 10:32:32 AM
More pics and specs available if u're interested.
I am interested and suspect others are, too. Good to know what our designer is up to. Please post VX pics and specs.
Brian is working on getting his own "VX" web site up and running so he can post specs and renderings - should be public within a few days. The address will be http://vxonedesignracing.com/ but there's nothing there but a logo right now.
Here's the essence: it's shorter, less wide, weighs less, has less sail area, and has a lower crew target weight than a Viper. It's designed for a different target audience than the Viper, while still being sporty, responsive, and fast.
Quote from: Jay Harrell on March 23, 2011, 01:57:18 PM
Quote from: Charlie Visser on March 23, 2011, 01:34:00 PM
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 23, 2011, 10:32:32 AM
More pics and specs available if u're interested.
I am interested and suspect others are, too. Good to know what our designer is up to. Please post VX pics and specs.
Brian is working on getting his own "VX" web site up and running so he can post specs and renderings - should be public within a few days. The address will be http://vxonedesignracing.com/ but there's nothing there but a logo right now.
Here's the essence: it's shorter, less wide, weighs less, has less sail area, and has a lower crew target weight than a Viper. It's designed for a different target audience than the Viper, while still being sporty, responsive, and fast.
I believe you are correct Jay. The VX is designed for three small people or two normal size americans. Its not the same category as the viper but will probably be competitive with the K6. Let's not forget the viper is a fourteen year old design that happens to be popular right now. Boat designers don't stop designing boats and I hope Brian's new boat takes off. It looks like fun and will be easier to make and ship than the viper but won't be as fast up or downwind.
The only thing that will hurt the Viper class is not getting the manufacturing ramped up enough to keep growing. If we can get boats and masts to customers faster no matter where they are built than we don't have a problem.