All, I would like to start a thread where we can attatch PHRF documents (ie, results, certificates, and PHRF committee findings). I think that this type of information if shared in our community can help other owners in other areas. We can just leave it as an open thread here on this message.
I am thinking of PHRF results, so that other owners can see how the boats rate against other boats and how thye do against them. This information can also be used by other boat owners to appeal their rating, provide validation to other PHRF areas about the Viper to "non-openminded commmittess", etc etc.
Copies of certificates can supply information to other owners in other areas with completing their own areas.
PHRF committee findings can be helpful as well. For example,I recieved a letter form our PHRF area stating that even though hikink devices are not permitted in the GYA nor is hiking for that matter in PHRF. I do not have to remove the hiking straps from my boat. This single letter can end a lot of off the water BS at club level PHRF regattas.
So waht say you, do you want to join in ?
Craig and Deborah
Viper #100 Ice Melted
Nacra20 #1018 Hoof Hearted
Viper #56 has a 99U ("unnofficial") cert from PHRF New England. It's not totally clear why they won't rate a viper as "official", but politics is what it comes down to. The establishment doesn't like sport boats here. What it means is that I can't race her in any PHRF NE sanctioned official regatta's, which basically means the PHRF NE Championships.
The Viper meets all the requirements though, which are:
- Motor (yes, I have one, 1.75HP self contained, goes on a bolt-on motor mount)
- Carry anchor, throwout line, etc (ISAF/ORC Category 5 inshore ocean racing requirements).
A motor is the only PHRF NE equipment rule I could find in their bylaws. It must be able to push the boat in knots at the square root of the length in ft, in flat calm water.
Also, must meet whatever ORC rules the organizers require, which around here is Cat 5.
I'll scan the cert sometime if I can find it...
We sailed Buzzard's Bay Regatta in about 20knts 4-6ft seas, as the scratch boat in B Class. We scored one bullet and had a lot of potential. Surprisingly, we were fast upwind when we weren't sinking (we were taking on A LOT of water in the heavy seas). We finished mid-fleet all said and done, but next time we'll know what we're doing there.
Copy of my PHRF cert attached.
Also, more on the subject in this other thread: http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=476.0
Here on Lake Champlain, the Viper got a rating of 102. Our competition includes J/92s (96), J/92 (105), J/29 (108-117), J/80 (117-120), Melges 20 (108), and when not OD racing, Etchells (126). I do the class splits at our club and we have four spin classes: Etchells, Spin A (heavy, faster keelboats with furniture, including J/109, B36.7, C&C 99, Pearson 37, etc.), Spin B (lighter boats listed above, including Viper), and Spin C (heavier or slower boats PHRF 120ish and above, like older Tartans, C&Cs and Beneteaus).
The key to fair PHRF in my opinion, is separating the heavier sticky boats from the lighter boats, even with overlapping PHRF numbers, especially if you have a lot of light wind days. Since we went to this class split format (checked and updated every year), participation and satisfaction have gone up for everybody. Since we are doing this separately from the PHRF committee, there doesn't feel like there are any politics in it.
Thanks to the Solings and Etchells on the Lake, we don't have any restrictions about hiking and lifelines.
We still have a lot of learning to do, but we feel pretty good in our class. I hate giving time to a J/92, but we can beat some of the J/29s.
Cheers,
Jason
FYI to folks in other areas, PHRF New England doesn't actually control all of New England. Lake Champlain PHRF is totally independent.
PHRF-Narragansett Bay Rates the Viper at 105. PHRF-NB may be the most open minded committee around as they don't require engines, lifelines, or any bow or stern rails, and they will give just about any boat a rating. Here are some results:
http://newportsportboats.com/2010-results/
http://www.jyc.org/RaceRslts/RaceRslts.htm
NorCal rating for Viper is 96. Fine in conditions from 15-20. Our nemesis is the Olson 30 at 99. We sail with them upwind provided it's not too lumpy. Once the wind hits 22 they will plane downwind and they kill us. Any less breeze and we sail long gybes off their transom for a bit and final edge onto their bow and we're gone.
Great idea Craig!
Also, dont forget there is a portion of the web site dedicated to PHRF and handicap racing here.................... http://www.viper640.org/the-viper-640/handicap-information
It would be great to have someone help keep this up to date.
The Viper has always embraced both handicap and one design racing, so if a group of y'all can think of ways the class can help support our PHRF participants let me know and we will make sure you have an active voice in the class .
Olaf.....in NE we got a 99 in Marblehead as a courtesy racing a long time ago so we could participate in Wednesday nights. We are not allowed to participate in the PHRF New Englands because we dont have a head. We are cool with that, because its fun to help out with RC or crew for friends on that weekend. It reinforced our rap as "nice guys". But it has crossed my mind to lash the porta potty from my seasprite on top of the keel.....just for giggles.
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on December 04, 2010, 06:58:37 AM
I recieved a letter form our PHRF area stating that even though hikink devices are not permitted in the GYA nor is hiking for that matter in PHRF. I do not have to remove the hiking straps from my boat. Craig and Deborah
Interestingly we agreed with a group of PHRF measurers that we would list in our recommended SIs for handicap events that all crew have both feet in hiking straps if body extended ourside sheer line...or something like that. It helped Chesapeake allow us to participate without life lines.
Quote from: Justin Scott on December 14, 2010, 09:41:54 AM
Olaf.....in NE we got a 99 in Marblehead as a courtesy racing a long time ago so we could participate in Wednesday nights. We are not allowed to participate in the PHRF New Englands because we dont have a head. We are cool with that, because its fun to help out with RC or crew for friends on that weekend. It reinforced our rap as "nice guys". But it has crossed my mind to lash the porta potty from my seasprite on top of the keel.....just for giggles.
Hey Justin,
If you read the PHRF NE bylaws, the only thing required is a *motor*. They are full of sh-t. They just don't want small sport boats racing PHRF. The word "head" does not appear anywhere, except when followed by the word "sail".
In fact, here is the only spelled out requirement that doesn't deal with sails and such:
http://www.phrfne.org/page/about_phrf/bylaws
Quote
8.11
4. outboard engine, or inboard engine with folding prop, or where appropriate, inboard engine with two-blade solid prop in aperture; auxiliary power, sufficient to propel the boat in calm water at a speed no less than the square root of the waterline length in knots, is mandatory;
I have a 1.75hp self contained motor/tank.
Comes out to 4.5knts on a flat.
CHECK
Various other snippets:
In the preamble:
Quote
PHRF-New England (PHRF-NE) handicaps are boat performance handicaps. They are based on the speed potential of the boat, based as far as possible on observations of previous racing experience. It is the intent of PHRF-NE handicapping that any well-equipped, well-maintained, and well-sailed boat has a good chance to win; and that any boat that wins a PHRF-NE race is indeed well- equipped, well-maintained, and well-sailed.
CHECK
Quote
8.1.1 Only single hulled cruiser/racer boats will be issued official handicap certificates..
CHECK
Quote
8.8 The Executive Board, subject to instructions received from the Board of Governors at the annual meeting, shall provide criteria for the eligibility of yachts for handicaps. In applying such criteria, a Fleet Handicapper may reject the application of any yacht he considers not eligible, subject to appeal to the Handicapping Committee.
OOOOPS! How about that: the Fleet Handicapper can reject anyone he wants.
I'll appeal if there's a race that I want to enter and that won't accept my unofficial certificate. Buzzards Bay for one WILL accept it. For PHRF NE, I'm usually sailing on a Henderson 30, which is a proportionally bigger Viper. (i.e. about 3x worth of boat). Racing at Tinkers, whatever...
My history may be a little fuzzy but it is my understanding that the Viper was given a provisional rating of 96 several years ago. (Austin Texas, AYC) Early last year the rating was appealed and changed to 102. Felipe Payet led the appeal and presented a substantial amount of data relevant to the boat?s performance VS the rest of the fleet over the previous few years.
I might see if he could chime in on this discussion.
We carry a 96 on Galveston Bay, which is dead even with a Melges 24.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on December 15, 2010, 03:41:42 PM
My history may be a little fuzzy but it is my understanding that the Viper was given a provisional rating of 96 several years ago. (Austin Texas, AYC) Early last year the rating was appealed and changed to 102. Felipe Payet led the appeal and presented a substantial amount of data relevant to the boat?s performance VS the rest of the fleet over the previous few years.
I might see if he could chime in on this discussion.
We carry a 96 on Galveston Bay, which is dead even with a Melges 24.
Thats absurd to carry dead even with a Melges 24. We realized that the M24 would make an excellent benchmark for the Viper. So we studied the relative handicap numbers in areas where both classes are actively raced PHRF and came up with an average difference. It is published on the handicap section of with the website. Steer your local measurere to it. I have raced right alongside Melges 24s at several regattas and I can assure you that in 85% of conditions they owe us time.
The head is not a requirement for PHRF New England rating.
It was a requirement to sail in the PHRF New England Championships held in Marblehead at end of August. I had a PHRF cert'. I applied to enter and I was called by Bump Wilcox who told me they required a head to preserve the character of that regatta. I said that I was cool with that and got a ride on Rob's Swan instead.
Ironically, we peed over the side all day. The head wasnt used once. But I think their main point is that they want to keep some semblance of a Racer/Cruiser regatta. That's okay with me. I accept that the Viper is a very different boat from most boats that sail in that regatta. There are lots of different ways to have fun in sailing boats and I dont want to spoil their fun. The PHRF guys are very welcoming to Vipers at other events in NE.
If we asked for a sport boat start at the PHRF NEs and could get together enough interest they would rpobably welcome us. Although I admit, I kinda like sailing on OPB s once in a while.
Quote from: Justin Scott on December 16, 2010, 10:12:17 AM
The head is not a requirement for PHRF New England rating.
It was a requirement to sail in the PHRF New England Championships held in Marblehead at end of August. I had a PHRF cert'. I applied to enter and I was called by Bump Wilcox who told me they required a head to preserve the character of that regatta. I said that I was cool with that and got a ride on Rob's Swan instead.
Ironically, we peed over the side all day. The head wasnt used once. But I think their main point is that they want to keep some semblance of a Racer/Cruiser regatta. That's okay with me. I accept that the Viper is a very different boat from most boats that sail in that regatta. There are lots of different ways to have fun in sailing boats and I dont want to spoil their fun. The PHRF guys are very welcoming to Vipers at other events in NE.
If we asked for a sport boat start at the PHRF NEs and could get together enough interest they would probably welcome us. Although I admit, I kinda like sailing on OPB s once in a while.
Sounds plausible for the PHRF NE's. You're right in that a certain curmudgeonry is interested in precisely that, i.e. ONLY racer/cruisers. I agree: what PHRF needs to do is introduce a sport boat class, since the M24's, M32's, Hendo's, and a few other sport boats frankly aren't apples-to-apples with the displacement hulls either. Put all the planing hulls with asym's on one line and it'll be a moderately fair race. IMHO. I don't think that a certain few would in the management would "welcome" it though.
That said, there are definitely regattas such as BBR that didn't have a problem with having us. Some of the lead sleds in B Fleet weren't pleased however. We were scratch boat at 99, zipping around on the line creating mayhem, and flying past the symmetrical lead sleds in 20knots. At least there wasn't one person on a rail that didn't want to be on my boat.... LOL
Gulf Yachting Association PHRF. Melges 24 rates 96 in GYA
Gulf Yachting Association Letter approving hiking straps allowed on boat. However, note that in the Gulf Yachting Association hiking straps or hiking devices are not permitted. This letter was to approve the hiking straps to not be required to be removed for PHRF racing.
Rough Data spread sheet for PHRF differences in Viper 640 and Melges 24. Compilied in 2010
BlueWater Bay Sailing Club (Florida) Grande Finale PHRF Race. 2010.
Spinnaker
NAME BOAT PHRF
Ice Melted Viper640 96
Avocet Wavelegth 24 165
Pandemonium Pearson 33 156
Victoria Benetau 35 135
Kahlua Oday 28 213
Craig, PHRF-NB rates the Viper at 105 and the Melges 24 (and Shaw650) at 99.
Does the Shaw 650 devour the M24 with those ratings?
FWYC FCA Regatta 2010 Results
Quote from: Justin Scott on December 17, 2010, 10:00:12 AM
Does the Shaw 650 devour the M24 with those ratings?
You can see some results here: http://www.jyc.org/RaceRslts/2008/RaceRslts08.htm
I think the ratings are pretty fair for the three designs. Unfortunately, JYC splits the classes at 100 so we don't race against them on a regular basis, but when we do it comes down to who sails a better race, not who has a favorable rating.
Even though I don't currently own a Viper, I still think of myself as "part of the family", so I'll chime in with the history of what we went through in Austin to get a local PHRF rating.
Back in early 2008, I bought a Bennet Viper from John Ridell in AZ, and brought it to Austin. There had been a tin-rig Viper at AYC many years back, with a PHRF rating of 105.
When I showed up with a carbon-rig boat that also had the updated keel bulb, the local PHRF braintrust freaked (putting it kindly), thinking that the carbon rig and updated bulb would substantially improve the boat's performance, and ignoring my arguments about the impact of the carbon rig, they assigned me a PHRF rating of 96 (OUCH!) I managed to get them to call it a "provisional" rating, with a promise to revisit the rating after a season's worth of racing. To make the 96 even MORE painful, the local rating for a Melges 24 at the time was 99. Yes, boys and girls, we OWED the M24 3 seconds a mile. Yeah, THAT makes sense... :-/
Anyway, after a season of racing, I submitted the write-up below to the local PHRF committee. I'm posting it here in the hopes that it might help others in a similar situation. Cutting to the chase, the final outcome was that the Viper was re-rated to 102, and recently, the Melges 24 was also re-rated, to a 93. So all in all, a fairly happy ending for the Viper.
Hope this helps,
Felipe.
ex owner of Viper #601 Valiente, and #103 The Stig
----------------------
Request for PHRF Rating of the Viper 640 sportboat
I believe the current Viper 640 PHRF rating of 96 to be very aggressive, and would like to officially request a review by the PHRF committee. My intent here is not to question the rating of any other boat, nor am I seeking a ?gift? rating for the Viper. I?m simply hoping the Viper will be assigned a rating that fairly (or as fairly as possible within the constraints of PHRF) represents its relative performance.
Local rating vs. other regions & benchmark boat:
--------------------------------------------------------------
The current rating of 96 rates the Viper quite a bit faster than it is rated in any of the other local PHRF fleets where it is actively raced. As you can see in the table included below [table copied from the viper640.org web site, page on PHRF ratings], the Viper is rated anywhere from 99 to 111 in areas where it is actively raced, and the weighted average rating (accounting for # of boats AND # of seasons raced) for the Viper is 107.6.
Furthermore, looking at the Viper versus a Melges 24 (chosen as a benchmark because it is also a planing sportboat, and is raced competitively around the country): Within our local PHRF fleet, a rating of 96 rates the Viper 3 seconds FASTER than the Melges 24, which carries a local rating of 99 (notwithstanding the fact that the Melges has longer waterline and significantly larger sail area). In contrast, looking at the rating for the Melges 24 in all the areas listed below, the Melges is on average rated 9 seconds faster than the Viper 640 in those areas where both are actively raced (again, see the data below).
One other point regarding the US Sailing PHRF data for the Viper 640: US Sailing lists the Viper as having a HIGH rating of 111, a LOW of 81, and a resulting AVERAGE of 99. Unfortunately, I believe the low rating of 81 is not a number representative of the boat: 81 is listed as the rating for the Viper in Charleston, and the only Viper 640 that has raced PHRF in Charleston was a heavily modified boat (with traveler, custom jib cars and more) that briefly raced during the 2006 season. I think this number presents a skewed picture of the true PHRF performance of the boat, and should not be considered when attempting to rate the boat locally.
Finally, here?s the backup data for many of the arguments above; a comprehensive list of rating data for regions where the Viper is raced PHRF. The data Includes current number of boats racing PHRF and how many seasons the Viper has been racing PHRF.
The number of boats racing is based on the current number of Vipers actually racing in PHRF events in the region. The number of seasons is the total number of seasons that the Viper has raced PHRF in the region. The rating is based on the 2008 PHRF certificates issued in the region unless otherwise noted. We have used the data of actual current PHRF certificates where available.
This data was compiled by several members of the Viper 640 class association, and can also be seen here:
http://viper640.org/index.php/Handicap-Information/PHRF-Ratings.html
Always part of the family.
We miss you!
For those who have not sailed with or against Felipe in the Viper fleet, his towering performance in the 2008 NAs will always stand head and shoulders above all my other memories of that event.
We look forward to seeing you some time again soon.
PHRF Regatta Zevin #1 (01-22-11)
Here's our new PHRF Cert for NorCal. Still at 96 :-( SoCal bastards have it SO easy with 111 (shhhhh, this can't last long down there)
Notice our downwind rating....24 :-o
Santa Cruz 50 only spots us 33 seconds/mile....sheeesh
New 2011 GYA PHRF. went from 96-102, which puts a 6 second differenct bewtween the Melges 24 (M-24 at 96). This follows the average delta in the various PHRF regions around the country.