Just got a boat, trying to get the best weight given that the conditions aren't known. Thanks
Congrats. What boat and where are you located?
People say 550-570. Heavier is faster upwind (as is hiking hard of course), but a disadvantage downwind in nearly all conditions. If you're athletic and tall and like hiking really hard, maybe you can get away with lighter. If you knew you were sailing in a predominantly light air venue, lighter. If you knew it'd be windy, maybe heavier.
I have always heard that 570 or so is the optimum weight. However, to go against convention I will say that that heavier is better. While I might be trying to justify the large mexican food dinner I just ate (and man it was good!). I can only speak from experience (and I have not raced nearly as much as many who speak otherwise on these forums).
In Sarnia Jeff, Geoff, and myself were heavy! (yeah, we are a bunch of fat texans ............>than 600lbs). We did very well both in light and heavy conditions. We actually were more competitive in the light than in the "heavier" conditions the first day. (the second day was more "survival" than anything else.)
My reasoning is that, naturally, lighter is faster, but relatively there is far more time spent upwind than downwind. I used to race bicycles (30 lbs ago), and it made far mor sense to be fast uphill than downhill, as it took a greater percentage of time/effort to go uphill than downhill. Of course a flat course it made sense to be light, as light is fast, but the typical Viper race has equal of both (on a typical winward/leeward course). During a typical race I would guess that we spend 80 to 85 percent of the time (or more)going to weather. Provided there is at least 10knts of wind, 600+ is fast (flat is fast and you can keep the boat powered up).
Of course I dont thing 800 lbs is fast, but I would argue thtat the conventional 570 "goal" may not be the right number. But once again, I may be justifying my current fat bolus of tortillas...and what the hell do I know anyway, I live in a landlocked desert with no water.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2011/dry%20run.jpg
Congrats, Lee. Welcome to the class! Where are you located.
We are in our first year of owning the boat. We are on a big learning curve still, however I can share what we have learned so far. My wife and I can double hand the boat with no problems in everything up to 15 knots. So crew mechanics are not as imperative as some other boats. That being said we found that in anything over 8 knots the weight of a third person is definatly beneficial. At our first few OD events we sailed with around 590 lbs. and that extra 20 lbs from the preferred optimum weight did not hurt us. Sure we were "heavy", however we found that decisions hurts us more than weight. Decisions like : starting (need to listen to the wife), mark roundings (more practice), gybes (nailing those) and clear air. If I can get my head out of my butt and nail those things I could probably not have to diet anymore.
Again, welcome aboard
Quote from: Drake Borer on November 18, 2011, 10:13:03 PM
My reasoning is that, naturally, lighter is faster, but relatively there is far more time spent upwind than downwind. I used to race bicycles (30 lbs ago), and it made far mor sense to be fast uphill than downhill, as it took a greater percentage of time/effort to go uphill than downhill. Of course a flat course it made sense to be light, as light is fast, but the typical Viper race has equal of both (on a typical winward/leeward course). During a typical race I would guess that we spend 80 to 85 percent of the time (or more)going to weather. Provided there is at least 10knts of wind, 600+ is fast (flat is fast and you can keep the boat powered up).
I don't think it's that simple. While you're spending a lot more time upwind, the relative speed difference is less. Obviously, it's
delta-V x time = delta-distance.
Thus, with more weight you can go upwind slightly faster for longer, and downwind you go quite a bit slower but for a relatively short time. At least that's the simple scenario.
If you're on the edge of planing, popping in and out for example in surf, the extra weight can make a huge difference in staying on a plane longer. Planing is about a 2knt advantage and even a few extra seconds translates into a lot of distance. On the other hand, if it's blowing stink and you're going to plane anyway, the advantage of more weight downwind can be in simply keeping the boat under control.
Overall, I would argue the ideal weight is such that the crew is fully hiked out when the boat is trimmed for max power upwind and "flat". If you're ever not fully hiking, then you're carrying extra weight for that time both up and down, which is the worst of all cases.
However, if you're too light, you can de-power and still be quite fast upwind. The polars are pretty forgiving. Ben Steinberg certainly schooled the fleet at Marblehead Noods this year with well under 500# in moderate air luffing his main the whole regatta, and my own best performances were definitely when sailing light.
In summary, I'd say definitely don't go over 525# if it's anything moderate air or less. But on the other hand I'm not winning the class either, so what do I know....? LOL
We sail between 560-570 all the time and feel we are fast in all conditions.
Brad
Jackpot 119
I agree, 560-575 seems like a good number. you will crush uphill in breeze @ 600 and change.....you just need to be real sharp to hold the majority off down hill. The light end, sub 10-12 kts, you may do ok @ 525, but you will have your hand full. :)
Quote from: Brad Boston on November 19, 2011, 08:41:31 PM
We sail between 560-570 all the time and feel we are fast in all conditions.
Brad
Jackpot 119
Yeah, but Brad, you got da MAGIC many of us don't begin to comprehend! We should fill your boat with 2-3 inches in the bilge to make it fair. LOL
We had a J/120 here that won so many races, I used to joke that they should have to carry all of their trophies aboard!
I like sailing heavy. 570 min and as Drake said we were probably 620 in Sarnia.
I feel like the weight gives you a bit of "punch" uphill as you go through wind-shifts etc. I think it helps me get the boat through short lulls or keep it moving through tacks.
It hurts a bit down-hill but i feel like it becomes significant until your in the marginal plane zone.
When you're at full hike being heavy is HUGE, especially in chop.
I often sail with at 470 lbs and even in light air, i'd take a little more weight upwind.
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on November 19, 2011, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: Drake Borer on November 18, 2011, 10:13:03 PM
My reasoning is that, naturally, lighter is faster, but relatively there is far more time spent upwind than downwind. I used to race bicycles (30 lbs ago), and it made far mor sense to be fast uphill than downhill, as it took a greater percentage of time/effort to go uphill than downhill. Of course a flat course it made sense to be light, as light is fast, but the typical Viper race has equal of both (on a typical winward/leeward course). During a typical race I would guess that we spend 80 to 85 percent of the time (or more)going to weather. Provided there is at least 10knts of wind, 600+ is fast (flat is fast and you can keep the boat powered up).
I don't think it's that simple. While you're spending a lot more time upwind, the relative speed difference is less. Obviously, it's
delta-V x time = delta-distance.
Thus, with more weight you can go upwind slightly faster for longer, and downwind you go quite a bit slower but for a relatively short time. At least that's the simple scenario.
If you're on the edge of planing, popping in and out for example in surf, the extra weight can make a huge difference in staying on a plane longer. Planing is about a 2knt advantage and even a few extra seconds translates into a lot of distance. On the other hand, if it's blowing stink and you're going to plane anyway, the advantage of more weight downwind can be in simply keeping the boat under control.
Overall, I would argue the ideal weight is such that the crew is fully hiked out when the boat is trimmed for max power upwind and "flat". If you're ever not fully hiking, then you're carrying extra weight for that time both up and down, which is the worst of all cases.
However, if you're too light, you can de-power and still be quite fast upwind. The polars are pretty forgiving. Ben Steinberg certainly schooled the fleet at Marblehead Noods this year with well under 500# in moderate air luffing his main the whole regatta, and my own best performances were definitely when sailing light.
In summary, I'd say definitely don't go over 525# if it's anything moderate air or less. But on the other hand I'm not winning the class either, so what do I know....? LOL
Thanks for all the responses. I am located in Mandeville, La, which is on the north side of Lake pontchartrain in the New Orleans area. Took the boat out for the first time on Sat, we were very impressed, but need to figure out how to take the kite down. i believe I shimped a kite more that day than I have in my entire life. So we must be doing something wrong with the dousing line and how it attaches to the kite. I would like to be in touch with the Texas fleet so we may travel. I do plan on MG and Charleston at least this year. Any Newbie tips would be appriciated.
I think you're going to want to be at max weight down there Lee - it'll help you get through that nasty chop.
See you in Feb
Quote from: Lee Eikel on November 21, 2011, 12:09:38 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I am located in Mandeville, La, which is on the north side of Lake pontchartrain in the New Orleans area. Took the boat out for the first time on Sat, we were very impressed, but need to figure out how to take the kite down. i believe I shimped a kite more that day than I have in my entire life. .
First of all Lee, echoing everyone else here, welcome to the class!!!
Which boat # do you have? You should ping Tony Chapman to give your contact info so that you get class newsletters etc. Make sure you get the Texas newsletter as well, it is highly entertaining. Jeff is usually giving Drake some grief and vice versa. I look forward to my copy more than any other email publication.
The dowse is easy once a fellow Vipe has shown you how. I still remember my first day when I could advertize "All you can eat shrimp". There are good threads on how to dowse on these forums. We probably need to clean up the old threads and just keep the best ones.
Briefly. Only start with windward dowses (on port gybe). Pull retrieval line bar tight before releasing halyard. Make sure retreival line is running in straight line out of the throat. Bear away. Blow halyard and haul retreival line.
Tips: Tie a small knot in retreival line below upper patch, so that it catches the lower patch and prevents bunching,.
As beginner, haul on windward sheet a little to bring clew closer to headstay.
More experienced Vipers will ckeck out what u are doing and help. It really is easy once you've done it.
I used to sail at around 560/70.
Then I watched how Tasselar and Wilmott were sailing lighter (closer to 500), with a slightly depowered tune upwind. Coincidentally, my crew this year happened to be lighter so I started using that approach. At several regattas I was 520.
Here's the thing.
At the NAS, three boats were racing neck and neck.
The Animal (Jeff and Drake) were sailing heavy at about 620
Brad, Lee and Eric (Jackpot) were sailing with 560-570
Justin, Ched and Pete (Mambo Kings) were sailing with 530.
All three boats were right alongside each other. We tuned to our different weights and I think that there wasnt a lot in it . We were tied on points going into the last race. Brad won the regatta because he won the last race. Jeff came second because he overtook me (the lighter boat) downwind, after I beat him (the heavier boat) to the windward mark.
I think the boat has a sweet spot anywhere between 520 and 580. Between that range, you make some tune adjustments and you can be as fast as anyone. These are not difficult boats to get up to speed.
Ha ha mr Scott... you failed to mention a) we started about 2 min late because our main was down at the gun AND sailed that entire race missing our three upper battens (which makes a terrible noise in 25 knots)... still almost caught you at the first windward mark. b) passed you down-wind because your mast was in the water, bulb exposed. I'm still looking for pictures of that for our next newsletter.
I will admit that you made us some ground on the second leg by going the right way, and a lot of the distance we made up on the first leg was due to a big left in our favor.
But i agree with Justin, one of the cool things about these boat's is there's a wide range of tuning available to compensate for sailing technique an / or weight.
Lee, We are boat #100, Fort Walton Yacht Club.
There is Kevin Blank out of Tammany Yacht Club over there too.
Craig
I know Kevin well. So windward drop is the novice approach? Not a Mexican? We are master at handling Lake Pont short steep chop!!!
Lee,
For douse threads, go to:
http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=6.0
http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=689.0
http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=1015.0
http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=436.15
Looking forward to meeting you in Charleston.
PB
Quote from: Jeff Jones on November 21, 2011, 01:28:35 PM
Ha ha mr Scott... you failed to mention a) we started about 2 min late because our main was down at the gun AND sailed that entire race missing our three upper battens (which makes a terrible noise in 25 knots)... still almost caught you at the first windward mark. b) passed you down-wind because your mast was in the water, bulb (and balls!) exposed. I'm still looking for pictures of that for our next newsletter.
But i agree with Justin, one of the cool things about these boat's is there's a wide range of tuning available to compensate for sailing technique an / or weight.
Yeah I admit that was a sneaky trick borrowing your battens.....but all is fair in love, war and the eternal struggle with the Monkey. Let the battle recommence.
g'day mates
the mighty GBR 123 sailed the whole year around 275kg,
which I think is just over 600lbs...
In regards to ideal weight... 550 i think.
these boats are underpowered downwind, so if your heavy your going to
suffer, you need to be fast downwind...
most important Hike Hike Hike
Looks like all of the big hitters have chimed in now so i figured I would jump in.
Don't sweat the weight. Jackpot recommends between 500 and 600lbs. if your a little under or over you just have to change your sail shape a bit. Depower sooner in heavy air if your light and stay powered up if your heavy. More racing is lost to bad starts and missing big shifts than crew weight. I've seen light boats win in heavy air and fatties from texas win in light air. the biggest things to work on are hoisting, dousing and getting the kite out of the water if your shrimping.
"fatties from Texas"...............look Lee, I'm quite sure the reason you don't way more than me is that you're about, what.......4'10"?
LMAO. Now wait a second, as I remember, you yourself are Texas boy, though you try to hide behind the Detroit gangsta thing..
Lee, seriously - can you even reach the hiking straps at 4'10"?? :)
My two cents worth, having one design raced with 590 and 620, i felt the 620 was too much.
But really anything can get you around the track if you tune for it and keep your head out of the boat and go the right way.
Really more importantly,
What's the optimum amount of rum for a regatta?
I tried limiting to just one rum drink the night before at one regatta and that didnt work at all, we were dog slow.
I tried drinking as much as Somers and crew in Miami and we didnt even make the starting line on time the next day.
There must be a happy medium. Any suggestions on the optimum?
Quote from: Justin Scott on November 28, 2011, 10:27:09 AM
Really more importantly,
What's the optimum amount of rum for a regatta?
I tried limiting to just one rum drink the night before at one regatta and that didnt work at all, we were dog slow.
I tried drinking as much as Somers and crew in Miami and we didnt even make the starting line on time the next day.
There must be a happy medium. Any suggestions on the optimum?
Doesn't the Royal Navy suggest 1 liter/day??
1 bottle a day is Jackpot style......you know what I'm talking about!