Keel Bolt Anchor Repair

Jeff Jones · August 18, 2011, 07:20:08 PM

You've got a typical case of "FKS" (fat keel syndrome)

Same thing happened when i tried to put these over the keel of 115 and 103. I wouldnt go the sand and fit route. Paul came out and installed a V2 over 115 and 103's keels. 115 was still snug and the keel got buggered up. Thus, the new teflon job.

If it's not a tight fit on the front and back Chris maybe you could just cut most of the center out, leaving just the adjoining strips to hold the ends dimensionally stable. Not sure the sides do anything in the center. And since your orgional keel bolts are there you dont need the mass to hold those down, you just want to keep the keel from banging around in the box when it's not down.

I think the ticket would be to widen the keel box to 3", put in some front / back guides that will keep the keel from banging around when its not down - then go with vertical guides on the side of the keel / keel box that will lock it in place when it's down. That should also take a lot of pressure off the keel bolts. Of course, there goes your break-away box.

Quote from: Chris Shaughnessy on August 17, 2011, 02:46:59 PM
Here are pics of keel box cassette I got from Rondar last August. There were no inserts - I was told to position it on top of the existing inserts and drill hole so I could continue to use them. Purpose was not to help with keel bolt issues but just to glue it in and have it act as a sacrificial shock absorber of sorts (Paraphrasing Andy at Rondar here). In case that didn't work out they did also give me a few new inserts to epoxy in if necc. Note that the fore and aft 'tabs' have carbon cloth reinforcing on them. I did not install it yet because it was not a good fit to the keel profile - way too tight to slide up and down without gauging the keel sides.
Have been meaning to sand it down some and glue it in over the winter - of course that will leave me with exposed glass rubbing against the keel which is not great either.
BTW this was for #108 so about as close to 106 as you can get.
Maybe they have modified the insert since last year ?

Craig Wilusz · August 21, 2011, 09:00:06 AM

Anyone know where to get the black acryilic keel guides for a Mk II. Hull #100. Boat has the two black top and bottom acrylic plates. Or is there a template out there to make your own?

Thanks for any info.

Craig

Drew Harper · August 21, 2011, 11:28:24 AM

Craig,

Rondar has the template for those. Email Paul Young or Dave Hall for new ones. They can ship them to you directly.

[email protected]
[email protected]

Jeff Jones · August 22, 2011, 11:11:36 AM

Spoke with another fellow who's had a big issue with his rondar keel system. To help fix the problem he had some small shims made that fit in front and back of the keel where it enters the hull. There was a large gap in these areas which allowed the keel to rock forward and back - putting a bunch of stress on the insert / bolts.

Drew Harper · August 22, 2011, 12:02:33 PM

What's the hull number? Did it have keel guides installed? I always get this info back to Paul Young.

Jeff Jones · August 22, 2011, 12:14:25 PM

I'll send you an email. Very new hull number - very good sailor.

Quote from: Drew Harper on August 22, 2011, 12:02:33 PM
What's the hull number? Did it have keel guides installed? I always get this info back to Paul Young.

Thomas Leith · August 22, 2011, 06:36:35 PM

This is timely. We have hull #80. It has the plastic block recessed into the bottom that keeps you from wrecking the hull in the event of a grounding (which we tested spectacularly at Charleston a few years ago). There is a matching plate fastened to the top of the rectangular keel trunk with 10 screws. Fastened to the bottom of this plate are two studs from http://www.bighead.co.uk (that's the first picture). Big wing-nuts go on these studs to clamp the keel to this top plate.

We've managed to break one of the studs: it looks like metal fatigue caused the "big head" of the stud to simply crack & fail. I need a replacement, but I have never liked the studs & wing-nuts for two reasons:

1) We sometimes have trouble getting the keel to slip nicely over the studs and need to horse things around a bit before we get it to drop on. Besides being annoying, it seems hard on the studs.

2) We keep getting lines snagged on the wing nuts. Annoying and sometimes kinda slow.

So here's a question for the rules/technical committee:

Can I replace the studs that come up through the black plate with a Big Head Nut (the second picture) and use a bolt & washer to fasten the keel to the boat instead of the wing-nut? Will that be "class legal"? The boat owner is very worried about the "strictness" of the "one design". Can I get an authoritative answer?

In this thread I see there is a "keel guide cassette" that might or might not fit my keel, requiring fiberglass work, yada, yada, yada, recommended for hull #106 which I presume came out of the same molds as #80. Looking at the picture I see no particular advantage over the present system. What have I missed? Anything?

Ben Steinberg · August 22, 2011, 06:58:27 PM

The cassette will not work in hull 80 You can legally switch the bigheads to the other style you've shown. There was a limited series of boats delivered with the studs. The rest are the other style.

Thomas Leith · August 22, 2011, 07:15:23 PM

Thank you very much -- I guess I have to order the Big Head Nuts from England. I hope they don't want me to buy 100 or them or something.

Zach Freeborn · August 22, 2011, 07:36:10 PM

I would replace it with a T-nut from your local hardware store instead of ordering any fasteners from the UK.

Thomas Leith · August 22, 2011, 08:32:00 PM

Hmmmm.

It seems these come in stainless. I'll give that a go, thanks.

Lee Shuckerow · September 06, 2011, 03:33:28 PM

Quote from: Zach Freeborn on August 22, 2011, 07:36:10 PM
I would replace it with a T-nut from your local hardware store instead of ordering any fasteners from the UK.

We have had some major issues on jackpot, an incident in Charleston on some rock pile with a big sign on it, and in miami on one of the reefs trying to sail in and out of the harbor. We had something similar the t-nut from the factory. Hull #119. The problem isn't the t-nut or similar products its the strength of the area you embed it into. having guides put in will help if you hit stuff and bulking up that back area where the keel bolt goes in. We cut the shelf out that was there, it was 3/8" thick, and epoxied a piece of stainless steel with a drilled and tapped hole. It was an easier fix for me since i'm better at working with steel than fiberglass/gelcoat.

Thomas Leith · September 06, 2011, 05:53:13 PM

Yes, there isn't much material to hold the what, #12 screws? Once they tear out you can try putting in a bigger screw but this is a tenuous fix. On #80 there ain't no 3/8" of material -- half that at best. I'm not sure Bennett/Young intended for the screws to tear out of the hull they way they did. I can't do the normal "fill the hole with epoxy & drill a new one" sort of fix I'm used to doing because there isn't enough material there to hold the new epoxy. I am disappointed in this aspect of the build, there should be more material there. Period.

But they did tear out, and I did put bigger screws in, and I am sure this will have to be repaired properly some day. The boat's owner does not want inspection ports installed, so I suppose I'll be looking for another (waterproof) solution I can do completely from the top. The only thing I have thought of so far will be (as my father says) a wooly-booger of a job (but it would be strong & waterproof and would not require modifying other parts).

To follow up on the keel bots parts, BigHead has a US distributor:
http://www.kvt-koenig.us

and the part I want to replace the keel hold-down studs on #80 is this one. It'll fasten exactly where the stud went and poke up into the black plastic keel guide/plate but won't protrude from the top. I measured the holes in the aluminum keel plate and it'll take a 10mm bolt so that's what I'm planning to use. I'll let everyone know about pricing.

Ben Steinberg · September 06, 2011, 06:15:33 PM

A fix for the screwed in plastic plate that you can install from above is a rectangular plate of 3/16 g10 cut to fit in the deck rebate and also cut with the rectangular box sized cutout in its center to be bonded into the recess. This would provide a thicker flange that could be drilled and tapped to accept the fasteners from the plastic plate. The plastic would remain removable if there is a need to access the keel bolt bigheads. The bigheads are meant to break at the welds if you hit bottom hard. I can talk anyone through this that may be interested.

Ben

Thomas Leith · September 06, 2011, 09:34:43 PM

Thanks Ben. I'd thought of something like this, but it'll make the black plastic plate stand proud of the bottom by 3/16+", right? Plus you'll have only 3/16 of material to hold a thread. I could attach BigHead nuts to the 3/16 plate and cut recesses in the black plastic to make them clear to get something stronger I suppose. That black plastic is 3/4" thick -- I could plane that down by 3/16 to make it flush... Oh drat! Now I'm modifying parts...

Still -- this might be the best solution.

The BigHead aft where the screws tore out is not the one that broke! I wouldn't count on welds breaking to protect any plastical parts.