Hey folks. New Viper owner here, the boat is due to arrive in May.
Which bit(s) of electronics do folks use? I need to chose something to show me direction and anything else that might help so I thought I'd ask those that knew what's the best one to go for? Tacktick? Velocitek? Something else?
Thanks.
Luke (no hull number as yet).
We use a micro-tactic and a speed -puck
currently only the tacktick micro, velociteck sc1 and velociteck speedpuck are allowed by the class rules as well as good old fashioned bubble compasses.
Quote from: Ben Steinberg on February 27, 2011, 07:12:31 PM
currently only the tacktick micro, velociteck sc1 and velociteck speedpuck are allowed by the class rules as well as good old fashioned bubble compasses.
To add to that, the VMG, distance to line, lift/header, etc. functions are supposed to be disabled. In other words, only boat speed and heading are allowed to be used.
I imagine if you show up with the new Velocitek product (name escapes me), nobody will protest you either.
No functions on any approved navigation device have to be disabled. Part of the reason for limiting devices allowed.
Quote from: Matt Sole on February 27, 2011, 11:08:23 PM
No functions on any approved navigation device have to be disabled. Part of the reason for limiting devices allowed.
Hmm... interesting. Looking up the rules, it is indeed a little nebulous:
Quote
9 Safety Equipment
9.1 The following equipment shall be carried on board when racing: (a) One life jacket or buoyancy vest (of pattern approved by the National Authority if required) for each member of the crew.(b) One paddle(c) A compass, which may be conventional or electronic but which may not store headings, unless such compass is specifically allowed in these rules. (d) 20 meters of 6mm diameter or larger towing line (c) Additional safety equipment required by local or national laws shall be carried
10 Prohibitions, Restrictions and Exemptions
10.2.1 Electronic devices which measure or calculate, water depth, current speed or direction, wind direction or wind speed are prohibited.
10.2.2 If an electronic device has not been specifically approved by the Viper 640 Class Association Technical Committee, it shall be assumed to be prohibited.
10.2.3 (i) The Tacktick micro compass is approved . (ii) The Velocitek SC 1 and the SpeedPuck are approved
10.2.4 Electronic watches and timers are approved.
My reading of this, and hence likely why I heard it this way, is that 10.2.1 prohibits use of those aforementioned functions. 10.2.3 specifies which devices are allowed on board, but they still need to meet 10.2.1, which would be the case if you disable those functions in software (which can be done).
The VMG function for example, _does_ calculate wind direction in some capacity, as it is very much a function of wind shifts (but other things as well).
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not an official rule interpreter, but Matt's understanding is correct as far as I know. It's the way the rule was intended back when it was passed, and the way it has been discussed and enforced ever since the Velocitiek was approved.
Also, I don't see how a Velocitek would violate 10.2.1 anyway, as it has no depth or wind instrumentation. Just because a compass or GPS can tell you that your course has changed (and calls that function lift/header), doesn't mean it knows squat about the wind itself. It's certainly not measuring the wind directly, and I would argue it's not calculating it either, but merely inferring something about your situation based on a correlation that only holds in a few limited situations.
Niether the Tactic or the Velocitek, use or calculate anything described in rule 10.2.1. no matter whether full or partial functions are used.
They do both however log heading which would break the first part of 9.1 c. But for fill the second part of 9.1 c. as they are approved devices.
One of the advantages of having both the tactic and Velocitek is that you can have Heading displayed on the tactic and course over ground on the Velocitek from which you your self in the grey matter can deduce current direction if you feel. This however is just fine in the rules.
One of the reason for not alllowing some other of the gps boxes is that they have a flux gate compass that can read heading which would mean that it can give you current direction on the box. This is not allowed.
The reason for not allowing other devices, is that there are no real mechanisms at a regatta to see has what functions disallowed. This is simplified by allowing all functions to be used on approved devices only.
Quote from: Matt Sole on February 28, 2011, 07:59:34 AM
One of the advantages of having both the tactic and Velocitek is that you can have Heading displayed on the tactic and course over ground on the Velocitek from which you your self in the grey matter can deduce current direction if you feel. This however is just fine in the rules.
That's one of the reasons I asked in the first place. The velocitek would seem to be the better of the two devices since it gives speed etc., however it does not give pure heading. I don't think I want to get two boxes just yet but I would like to have heading and speed ....
What's the status on handheld/wrist mounted GPS? That would give me enough speed to work with and is much cheaper than a velocitek.
Luke.
So a good staring point would be a Speed Puck? (heading, speed, lift/knock)
-
Do you need anything else?
Well, cool, sounds like I ought to learn to use my SC1's other functions a little more...!
Of course, there is an adage which says, "Dude, if you need that, you have other problems."
I think wrist GPS watches are disallowed by 10.2.2, unless you take a broad interpretation of what an "electronic watch" is. Cell phone GPS/aps similarly would be disallowed.
Folks ? here?s a preview of what?s coming from the new tech committee on electronics for a class member vote.
We have a rule that is currently tied to specific models of boxes. As we have seen with the Velocitek SC-1, these boxes come and go. We have two proposals from late last year requesting approval of the Velocitek ProStart and the NovaSail 300 and 600 series ? these came in too late to be voted in the last set of rule changes. In other forum discussions there has been a lot of talk about moving to functionality instead of specific equipment so we don?t have to keep revisiting this.
Our plan is request an Exec Committee OK to conduct a ?special electronic vote? later this spring, which is now allowed by the recent changes to the class constitution. Otherwise, we would need to wait until the AGM at Sarnia. A key issue in this vote will be electronics and the schedule for a vote with required notice and voting periods is around late-May. So, a clear class decision in time for most summer sailing.
Ben Steinberg (member of the new tech committee) is working on the specifics of the proposal to be voted on. After he gets tech committee buy-in (very quick) he?ll be posting the draft proposal for feedback in the member section of the forums. Then the tech committee will finalize it for a vote.
Ben has some work to do, but I expect that you will see something like a choice of:
A) any function that comes out of a magnetic or flux gate compass and GPS box or
B) a back to basics less expensive, set of limited functions like magnetic or flux gate heading, GPS-based speed over ground and a count-down timer.
You?d be surprised at the number of less-vocal folks who seem to favor B. The only way this can be reasonably decided is a class vote. Please let Ben finish what he's working before getting into the mertits. And we'll move the discussion to the member section
The tech committee last week decided not issue a rule Interpretation to allow the use now of the Velocitek ProStart. Although it has similar (and even fewer) functions than the SC-1 (the argument for an OK now), there are couple functions (GPS based course over ground and the windshift indicator) that cannot be turned off on this box. That could leave someone with a box they can?t use if B above survived vetting and was approved by the class. These functions can be turned off on the Speedpuck which is currently approved.
Sorry for the long explanation, but this is an important issue and hopefully we can find a solution that is more robust than what we have now. It?s a class decision.
So my satcom based ECDIS nav system is definitely out? ;-)
The TC has its hands full as I hear there's some specific boxes coming out this year that will be pretty cool. New GPS chipset is in beta and will release Q2....Loads-o-functions.
I personally like the Nova360 but it's out of stock all the time, so pretty much a moot point.
Anyone try a RockBox? Any Good?
Most importantly, how do we get Jeff Jones to make a ton of multi-mount mast brackets for the class :-))
Dave,
Is there some interpretation floating around that dictates what needs to be turned off in the SC1/etc? I'm hearing here that nothing does. True?
Anyone who can run over to Justin's house.. pick up my 5 EFG shirts from October and UPS them to me (using my acct number) get's one - next day.
;-)
Quote from: Drew Harper on February 28, 2011, 11:26:01 AM
So my satcom based ECDIS nav system is definitely out? ;-)
The TC has its hands full as I hear there's some specific boxes coming out this year that will be pretty cool. New GPS chipset is in beta and will release Q2....Loads-o-functions.
I personally like the Nova360 but it's out of stock all the time, so pretty much a moot point.
Anyone try a RockBox? Any Good?
Most importantly, how do we get Jeff Jones to make a ton of multi-mount mast brackets for the class :-))
On my way...... Where does he live again? ;)
Quote from: Jeff Jones on February 28, 2011, 03:21:34 PM
Anyone who can run over to Justin's house.. pick up my 5 EFG shirts from October and UPS them to me (using my acct number) get's one - next day.
;-)
Quote from: Drew Harper on February 28, 2011, 11:26:01 AM
So my satcom based ECDIS nav system is definitely out? ;-)
The TC has its hands full as I hear there's some specific boxes coming out this year that will be pretty cool. New GPS chipset is in beta and will release Q2....Loads-o-functions.
I personally like the Nova360 but it's out of stock all the time, so pretty much a moot point.
Anyone try a RockBox? Any Good?
Most importantly, how do we get Jeff Jones to make a ton of multi-mount mast brackets for the class :-))
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on February 28, 2011, 02:43:19 PM
Dave,
Is there some interpretation floating around that dictates what needs to be turned off in the SC1/etc? I'm hearing here that nothing does. True?
Olaf - I'm not aware of any interpretations that says you have to turn off any functionality currently on the SC-1. Paul Z may have more history.
There are no interpretations as there are no functions that need to be turned off. That was part of the deal of limiting what electronic boxes would be allowed. You can use the start line feature if you wish, VMG mode, timer or what ever. Its all class legal.
If a new class rule is adopted, in my view it must grand farther in those who already own an SC-1, speed puck and tactic, to be able to use full functionality.
It is unfair to those who have purchased these units on the basis that they were able to use full functions, to suddenly limit their use. If you want to impose new rules it has to fair to all not just those who want a cheepo unit that doesn't do very much.
The rule allows full function of any approved device. If one wants to spend their time fiddling with a device then there head is in the boat not out of the boat looking at what the guy next to you is doing. In one design all you need to do is look at the boats around you. Shit, I need to go faster!!!
Explain to me why we care what people use again? There are good units out there that are not to expensive and work really nice.
What is the reason for not allowing people to use what they want? The Sc1 all ready has everything but it does not work 100% of the time. That is why they fixed it and called it the Prostart..
Brad
Quote from: Brad Boston on March 01, 2011, 09:21:51 AM
Explain to me why we care what people use again? There are good units out there that are not too expensive and work really nice.
I'm guessing the core reason goes back to keeping the cost of competing down. I think with a more generically written rule pending, what you use will be a non-issue provided it's not tied into a suite of instrumentation.
I personally had heard that various functions weren't permitted, but I guess that wasn't the case. So I'm going to dig out my SC-1 manual and see what else it can do.
If we are working this hard to keep cost down does this mean that we all need to stay in the cheapest Motels possible? I see people staying in the Court Yard all the time when they could be in the slums saving money. What are we doing here....Lets relax on the rules a little like this how we got this many people into the class in the first place.
This is my rant.
Brad
think I may put a fish finder on my Viper....or better yet...an underwater camera so I can watch the grass build up around the keel in Biscayne bay next week!
Brad, all you need to put on Jackpot is a rear view mirror....
Quote from: Brad Boston on March 01, 2011, 09:51:50 AM
If we are working this hard to keep cost down does this mean that we all need to stay in the cheapest Motels possible? I see people staying in the Court Yard all the time when they could be in the slums saving money. What are we doing here....Lets relax on the rules a little like this how we got this many people into the class in the first place.
I stayed at Holiday Inn Express Last nite, so I must be faster/smarter today :-)))
This is my rant.
Brad
For me, the best part of the box is being able to "watch" the virtual race later and try to analyze why I missed so many shifts....
-Jimbo
Velocitek now supports course logging on a MAC...woohoo !
I like electronics, gadgets, and computers. Personally I want to be able to use what I want from gps or compass data. I even think we should be allowed to use iPads and iPhones if they can be safely mounted. Device saturation and competition will bring the prices down on all these things.
On the racecourse, this stuff is all naturally self-limiting. The more time you spend with the gear, the less time you are watching outside the boat, or watching the sails, etc. Let us choose our gadgets! They are all cheaper than new sails, which some can afford every year, and some of us can't. If I buy a gadget, I can take it with me on the Viper or on my dad's C&C 99, or wherever, just like I take my phone, my GoPro, my sailing watch, etc.
I would also say that this class is full of tech saavy people, so let's not fear the future or the electronics. It won't be an arms race.
jason
We have talked about this in the Republic of Tejas. Our answer is use what you want. If someone wants to put a 30k B&G on their Vipe, Great. They will be instrument fixated and probably get their asses kicked trying to ping the line. Head /lift modes and kt meters on planing boats dont make the sailor. Training, looking at .10 cent yarn on your jib and hiking your butt off does.
+1
I think Steve has sailed the Viper a bit....
Quote from: Steve LeMay on March 02, 2011, 04:26:39 PM
Head /lift modes and kt meters on planing boats dont make the sailor. Training, looking at .10 cent yarn on your jib and hiking your butt off does.
Yes I believe that Steve knows a thing or two about sailing the Viper...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EJ8fq921KM&feature=related
2008 I believe that is you?
See the attached to get the feeling about this rule in the Lone Star State
As I go through this thread, I see more proponents for allowing all instrumentation. Brad Boston (I believe he knows a thing or two about sailing Vipers..) makes a valid point. I think the rule is based on the perception that it will hold off some sort of financial arms race. I believe this is a misperception. As Paul Zimmerman stated earlier (I also think that he knows a thing or two about the Viper), instrumentation is more or less worthless (or at very most, of limited help) on this boat. I have been reminded time and again that the class was founded on the premise that sailing should be fun. I agree wholeheartedly with this. Some rules are necessary and are impactful. Some rules aren't, and unfortunately, with rules come the necessary means and infrastructure needed to enforce them (not fun).
In my case, I was given a Rock Box AMPD as gift. I use it. It works...all the time unlike my Speed Puck. It hasn't made me any faster. It comes with all sorts of cool functions that I have never used. VMG is worthless on a lake with consistent (or inconsistent) shifts of up to 20 degrees. Pinging the line...! Are you kidding me, with the size and reactivity of these little boats you are far better off keeping your head up and finding a hole to stick your nose in. The Rock Box also has a nifty remote. Really? A remote that would take ten times longer to use than it would take to simply reach up and touch the device. Hell, if I used the thing I would spend half the day looking at pretty numbers and the other half swimming after I fell in the drink. Have you ever given a set of keys to a baby? We don't even take the remote with us.
A rule on instrumentation will not have any effect on the imagined arms race as instrumentation does not skew the playing field. A rule on instrumentation will at some point cause some gnashing of teeth, which is not fun.
My 2c
Has anyone else had problems with a Speed Puck?
other than eating batteries, mine has worked fine, and it's been beat to death too.
Quote from: David Furna on March 01, 2011, 11:43:04 AM
Brad, all you need to put on Jackpot is a rear view mirror....
LMAO! Best post on the forums for 2011 (and 2010 for that matter)
Well, Luke there you have it. Lots of info to chomp on eh! Use whatever you want.
The B & G stuff is really cool, and comes with a manual that weighs as much as the Viper
The SpeedPuck is great, and it is black and will match the carbon mast (my favaorite)
The ProStart is a fixit all for the SC-1 and is new
The RockBox is really cool, like a mini B & G and comes with a remote so as you plane off downwind sitting in the back of the bus you an toggle back and forth thru the commercials
The SC-1 has all the ideas, complicated to use, and the buttons will drive you crazier than an ex wife
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on March 03, 2011, 05:52:05 PM
Well, Luke there you have it. Lots of info to chomp on eh! Use whatever you want.
I was going to comment that my original question got hyjacked but someone beat me to it.
Up to this point I have raced on bigger boats with full suites of gizmos, boxes and screens and I used them all. However, all I want now is the heading, speed and a timer. I think this speaks well for those arguing to remove restrictions on electronics on the boats. It also clarifies my original question.
What doohicky will give me heading, speed and a timer? (with numbers big enough for me to see) I'll be racing handicap to start with until I can convice others locally to get proper boats or until I get enough courage to venture out for a real ass whooping so I'm not too concerned about sticking to class rules. Suggestions?
Luke.
Luke, we have the micro tac tik and a speed puck.
The micro tac tic gives heading and has a timer. The speed puck shows speed, headers and lifts (at 3 degree increments of angle, speed to a tenth of a knot). The speed puck is fun, it will show max 30second speed and max 5 second speeduntil it shuts off. You can download your day with I think Action Replay (itis on our computer) so you can see yourself on a track with heading a speed on a display screen later on and learn from it. We use the speed puck on our Nacra 20 as well and it is fun to compare tracks and speeds with the other catamaran's at the end of the day.
We had the tac tic mounted on the port side and the speed puck mouted on the starboard side. You can get a mast mount for the tac-tick easily, however the moast mounts for the speed pucks don't work so well. You can however bribe Jeff Jones on these forums with booze and promises of port tack crossings for one of his really nice carbon fiber mast mounts for both units (tac-tic and speed puck). The mount is velcro and requires no permanent fittings to tap/drill into mast what-so-ever.
Craig
#100, we got our boat in Ocotber
"ours goes to eleven"
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on March 03, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
micro tac tik and a speed puck.
Craig
#100, we got our boat in Ocotber
"ours goes to eleven"
Seems a good combo.
I got the larger Vtek, and found I dont use it.
Dont spend too much money on gps......the technology is evolving fast, and this year latest gizmo is out of date in two years.
Speed and ability to playback are the two worthwhile fun features of a gps.
Gps is inaccurate to use as header/lift indicator. The compass is better. Tac tic is neat and compact.
So do I get protested for using a different device, but getting no different info?
Drake, pls see reply #11 above. Our current class rules allow the use of 3 specific boxes and nothing else (see 10.2). This was decided by earlier class votes.
There seems to be broad consensus that rule doesn't work well now and that we should vote to change it. The new Tech Comm is working on draft proprosals to be vetted here and voted on late spring in a special vote. There's a range of options and opinions this and we hear from some of the more vocal folks here on the forum. But active forum participation is somewhat small relative to the voting membership - so I really don't know where this will end up. If you are thinking about buying something you might wait until the class makes a decision.
Can we get a moratorium on this rule and enter an experimental period for a few months?
Maybe see if the main suppliers would be willing to loan us a few units.
Matt - that's an interesting idea. The Tech Comm's sense was that folks are anxious to vote this and move on. How about we review the basic options that Ben is working on (they should be posted soon) and then revisit your suggestion? What you suggest would likely delay a vote until the AGM rather than have this done for summer. Texas has decided locally that they are going to use a long list of boxes. Their experiences and feedback might accomplish essentially what you propose.
How about just permitting GPS devices. IF someone wants to drop the cash on a few grand of electronics, let them. It has never in my mind of years of boat racing crossed my mind that someboat bested me due to electronics. In fact it is rather the opposite as mentioned here so many times (head in boat).
Keep it simple, this with th eit being "the rule". Take the non-recording thing out of there.
Jeff may even develop a solar powered hangover deterent vitamin c dispensing tooth brushing doll inflating heel o meter made out of interstellar carbon monoxide pixie dust (lightened of course) for us all.
Could someone publish a list of all the boxes currently available ?
As far as I can tell, the only real advantage that these boxes have is in calculating set (current direction) and drift (current speed). Without a log, drift is not possible. So the big issue is set. For that to be possible a box needs to have a flux gate compass and a gps device.
So here is a basic rule that would sort it all out; Any electronic device may be used, that does not contain both a flux gate compass and gps unit and does not have the ability to calculate set and drift.
Its that simple.
I have not seen a unit yet that compares / calculates Fluxgate heading (where the bow is pointing) vs. COG and delivers some result. Usualy it's either / or, COG via GPS data or a fluxgate heading...
I tried the Novasail, the top of the line has fluxgate capability. I own a Velocitek, COG only...
I guess I don't even see a reason to disallow getting set and drift data. I would like to see more devices that combine gps and fluxgate compass. I think limiting class rules forces manufacturers to leave out features that could be included at just about the same price point. If I am going to put my hard-earned money into a new box, I want to get the most for my money and have something I can take in class racing, PHRF racing, non-Viper racing. Look at how many people in this thread are having to buy two gadgets to get the features they want, since so many boxes leave out this or leave out that.
In principle, I favor unlimited instrument choices. Most of all, I want to be able to choose from any user interface on the market, since ease of use is so important.
jason
.."a solar powered hangover deterent vitamin c dispensing tooth brushing doll inflating heel o meter made out of interstellar carbon monoxide pixie dust"... Does that come in metric sizes?
Knowing JJ, I'm sure that will be an option.... slight fee increase though
The reason for limiting Set and drift, is that all other functions are nice to have but are not critical to doing well.
Set and drift can substantially improve your chances of doing well. To have such an advantage to not everybody would not be fair.
JJ will use domimetric
Domimetrics? Knowing jj as I do dominatirix is more likely
Matt, thanks for your explanation of set and drift. I sail 95% of the time in freshwater (Lake Champlain), where we don't have tides, but there are some underwater currents here and there. I think I would be disadvantaged in tidal conditions with or without instruments to help me. Do most PHRF boats in saltwater use set and drift data in their racing?
Really the thing I like best in these standalone instruments is header and lift indicators that save me from doing arithmetic on every tack. I love the TackTick RaceMaster that my dad has on his C&C 99, so I can track + this - that on tacks. I'm under the perception that fluxgate compasses are more accurate for that than gps, but maybe not.
Right now, my favorite instrument choices would probably be the RaceMaster and the ProStart. I would be tempted by the NS360 with all the bells and whistles, but it sounds like the interface might be a bit complex to be used efficiently, but I still haven't seen one up close. The Melges 20 in our PHRF fleet has one though, and they seem to like it.
When buying, I would probably focus on what I would use locally in PHRF, rather than what would be class legal at a Viper regatta, since I can probably only afford to go to one or two Viper regattas a year, and maybe not even this year, since I am getting married and have very little money for travel (or gear for that matter). I just don't want to buy something here and get used to it to help me against dissimilar boats, and learning to drive the Viper, and then have to leave it at home for a travel regatta that I can only occasionally afford.
Playing devil's advocate for set/drift and the other bells and whistles, I feel like having extra data would only help me to almost catch up with the locals, who would know the tide and current already. It wouldn't be much different than picking up some local to help crew for that regatta.
I guess with any technology purchase, I like to future proof myself and get features that I might not want or need now, but that might be useful in the future. I guess I think it would be cool if all these self-contained instruments had gps and fluxgate built-in, and the tech competition would be more about user interface.
Cheers,
jason
Just thinking out loud here:
Why not let everyone spend whatever they like on expensive gizmos and just have a simple rule that at sanctioned regattas, everything except the compass gets put in the starboard locker.
At santioned regattas we can look at tracking and top speeds etc. after racing.
At local racing we can play with our toys to our hearts content, unless local fleets want a local rule.
This avoids everyone adding $500-$1000 to the cost of a ready-to-race boat. Deep wallets can update with latest technology every two years. Shallow wallets dont feel at a disadvantage. PHRF racers can get every tool at their disposal.
I confess I'm prone to buying the toys but I dont want anyone to think I have an advantage.
I wouldn't want to shell out $500 for a dedicated compass if I've already bought a Velocitek SC-1 (all I own right now) or another multifunction device. I can't even see a dedicated compass-only device as a good value.
Fair point. It is noticeable how much the Tactick costs when you consider that other single function fluxgate compasses are as low as $200. For small boat sailors nobody has designed an equally elegant and simple solution so I guess they can charge for it.
Just FYI, the Velocitek SC1 does not have a compass. The heading on the Velocitek is your average COG from the GPS tracking. Its not a compass and its not reliable for detecting headers and lifts. If a puff hits you and you heel and make leeway, the Vtek will indicate a header. Current will fool you. You cannot shoot the breeze before a start. Vtek is fun for speed and tracking but eventually you will want a compass.
But I agree the tactick micro is a pricey little thing. Love it but it aint cheap. So my idea may not be the answer.
I just sailed for 4 days with the Pro Start and never changed the batteries..They have this thing really figured out.
When you buy in a group bulk they are not expensive...
Brad, do you also use a compass of some sort?
jason
We usually bring the Tack Tick. I have both of these that I use on a couple of different boats and just move them around with me.
Quote from: Brad Boston on March 07, 2011, 09:02:33 AM
I just sailed for 4 days with the Pro Start and never changed the batteries..They have this thing really figured out.
When you buy in a group bulk they are not expensive...
Prostart is not class legal. Hopefully it will be soon but be careful. I'd hate to see someone tossed for not sailing a class legal boat...would be a douchebag protest but could happen.
Make sure your boat has all the NECESSARY class items. Dave, can you post a list of the essentials for clarity?
Thanks....
Our rules? Pretty simple actually. They are only about 7 pages printed. Easiest to just read 'em.
Dan Tucker should soon be posting a version that includes all the changes that we voted on for the January AGM. The prior exec committee decided that ones that don't involve any required mods to the boat will go into effect March 31. The new rules on mainsheets and boats with carbon masts needing a gnav are effective June 30.
So does this mean we can use the split tail under the "experimental period" or do we all have to go back to bridle only systems?
I know the rules were revised in February, but cannot find them on the Viper website. Can someone point out where to find them? I am especially interested in the mainsheet change.
I went completley off thread..
To get back on course (my head is full of puns) of which compass to choose, basically go and buy a Tacktic Micro (awesome bit of kit by the way) and wait on the new rules to see which GPS unit you should buy if any.
Quote from: Matt Sole on March 08, 2011, 01:10:34 AM
To get back on course (my head is full of puns) of which compass to choose, basically go and buy a Tacktic Micro (awesome bit of kit by the way) and wait on the new rules to see which GPS unit you should buy if any.
That was what I originally thought of only now I'm leaning towards a speed puck instead of a wrist mounted GPS. The boat won't be here for another couple of months, I've got time to ponder.
Luke.
Fascinating discussion... We've got folks advocating all kinds of fancy electronics but we outlaw in-race tuning because we want to keep things simple.
Quote from: Jonathan Nye on March 08, 2011, 11:16:50 AM
Fascinating discussion... We've got folks advocating all kinds of fancy electronics but we outlaw in-race tuning because we want to keep things simple.
That's understandable - electronics are just fun toys that don't make the boat go faster...
Quote from: Jay Harrell on March 08, 2011, 11:19:59 AM
Quote from: Jonathan Nye on March 08, 2011, 11:16:50 AM
Fascinating discussion... We've got folks advocating all kinds of fancy electronics but we outlaw in-race tuning because we want to keep things simple.
That's understandable - electronics are just fun toys that don't make the boat go faster...
Zinger. Love it.
Apropos of GPS. The Melges 20 outlawed the ProStart. It is apparently amazingly effective for startlines. So the start line became the haves and have nots ( Ah hemm, I might think that the $2000 per diem tactician might be a useful have as well).
Melges 20 only allows electronics that give, courseand speed but not distance and/or position.
I'm real curious to what degree people are presently using features beyond the basic SOG and heading.
Shall we have a poll?
I tried pinging the line on the Viper but the speed changes to drastically and it does not work well. Now we just use it for speed and heading and timer.
Brad
Ben Steinberg will be posting a TC developed poll soon in the members section
I bought the Prostart, and I agree with Brad. The line pinging is just too troublesome at the start of a race. I would rather just eyeball it. I wish I had bought the speed puck instead. Although I do like the gun feature and timer on the prostart.
I just want to add my points again to this discussion. I think the price of the Tacktick Micro Compass is very high. I race 25-30 PHRF races a year and do not get to train against other Vipers. I want to get the most bang for my buck to help me improve my sportboat skills and performance, and I don't want to have to buy less capable, more expensive equipment just to go to a Viper regatta.
A while back in this thread there was discussion of set and drift, where it was implied that the NS360 might offer that, but I checked its documentation and didn't find anything.
jason
We tried the Prostart line deal in Houston and it was always 3-6M off. When it said we were on the line we were always way, way behind. It is a sure way to get 3rd row starts :)
Did you calibrate for the bow vs. ProStart location?
Curious,
jason
I found a great compass for much less than Tack tick. It occurs to me that it would make a good combination with the speed puck. I'll get details.
Again......I really recommend not using a gps as your compass, you'll get false headers and lifts. Jason....remember at CRW when I pointed that out on my boat. I only look at the Tacktic
If you are only going to get one instrument for your boat, get a great magnetic or fluxgate compass. The gps is a fun toy to tell you how fast you went.
Interesting that Pro Start is not much better than than SC1 in that regard.
I can confirm that I tried using the Velocitek SC1 for start lines and it was useless. After 2 OCS and 1 third row, I turned it onto the speed function and left it there. 100% agree with Tac and Robert.....the human mind is better at speed, time and distance. Even when hungover!
I like looking at the Vtek for the fun of knowing how fast Im going and what my top speed was. It would need a lot of refinement to be any use for racing. Without having tried the prostart, I echo Robert's sentiment. the speedpuck probably does all you want.
My advice is to get a great compass and then if you want speed, the cheapest thing that happens to be for sale on ebay . They will get better so let technology evolve.
My favorite instrument is still the TackTick RaceMaster. Fluxgate compass, start timer, plus lift/header indicators like the SpeedPuck. I could buy my dad's old one and he could upgrade to the model that networks with other TackTick gear for his C&C 99. But of course it is not class legal, despite all of its features being allowed in other gear the class allows. I would still like to have a ProStart for the easier timer, and to play with some of the other functions in PHRF.
jason
Assuming the NovaSail 360 gets the Tech Committee nod, I am working on a West coast order that may save us some money.
Ping me if interested. FYI...this is a Velocitek and TackTic all in one...GPS/FluxGate compass..runs on 1 AA battery for 30 hours, with backlighting and MOB (for hailing assistance) function.
Drew,
How about the NS 100.
Lower cost.
Good enough functionality ?
Moved to the compass discussion/poll. I agree with Jeff good move by the tech comm.
http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=890.msg8102#new
Mr. Steinberg, you have restored my confidence in the tec comedy.
That my friend, is funny. Well played.
Ahhhhh.... Now I remember why bought a viper !
Quote from: Drew Harper on March 29, 2011, 08:13:43 PM
Assuming the NovaSail 360 gets the Tech Committee nod, I am working on a West coast order that may save us some money.
Ping me if interested. FYI...this is a Velocitek and TackTic all in one...GPS/FluxGate compass..runs on 1 AA battery for 30 hours, with backlighting and MOB (for hailing assistance) function.
So for the 360 to be legal, we would have to adopt the "everything" approach to the rule, right?
Quote from: Matt Sole on March 29, 2011, 11:01:45 PM
Quote from: Drew Harper on March 29, 2011, 08:13:43 PM
Assuming the NovaSail 360 gets the Tech Committee nod, I am working on a West coast order that may save us some money.
Ping me if interested. FYI...this is a Velocitek and TackTic all in one...GPS/FluxGate compass..runs on 1 AA battery for 30 hours, with backlighting and MOB (for hailing assistance) function.
So for the 360 to be legal, we would have to adopt the "everything" approach to the rule, right?
matt, we interpreted the nova360 to fit in the as status quo
What about the course and distance to the waypoint function? Not sure how it works but that could be one hell of an advantage.
I think a "Everything" option might be something like a i-pad touch in a waterproof case running the latest Navi-x software... + grib downloads?? ;)
The everything approach would be great.
Eric does nothing on our boat anyway so maybe he could navigate. LOL....
Quote from: Tim Carter on March 29, 2011, 11:41:00 PM
I think a "Everything" option might be something like a i-pad touch in a waterproof case running the latest Navi-x software... + grib downloads?? ;)
Yes. I assume you'd be planning on using that on a Viper TransPac or something? ;)
Seriously though, Timbo does raise a good point, the "everything" option would mean precious few restrictions.
Quote from: Brad Boston on March 30, 2011, 09:07:50 AM
The everything approach would be great.
Eric does nothing on our boat anyway so maybe he could navigate. LOL....
ouch..that'll leave a mark.
The NS100 is a great little box and yes, we have them in stock....I have a used Vtek and a used 100 for sale too. I prefer the FluxGate compass so you don't have to be moving to get accurate readings.
Any YES Timbo...transpac is on our Viper Bucket list...gonna need a LOT of beer though.
Since future technology will continue adding more and more features to the devices, all be it most are useless like pinging the line and lift/header function, lets get rid of this headache rule and not worry about it. If someone can jam 10000 dollar of mostly useless electronics and extra weight onto their boat let em. I would like to see a guy with a control box around his neck and trying to tell you if you have achieved the optimum angle for a layline without knowing the actual location for the mark while hiking, tacking, looking/dodging other boats and also catching the correct windshifts all in a .6 to 1 mile beat.
GOOD LUCK!
also i've sailed on bigger boats where the tactician made every decision based on electronics box and we generally do poorly when we have ample time to actually set it up and read it correctly.
If we want a rule i would vote for any electronics but throw out wind instruments and don't allow usage of set and drift.
How about a sextant and some charts. Old school!! Thats how we roll in the PNW
Yeah and I bet you use a magnetised needle in a cork sat in water as your compass!
Pull the other one mate ;-)