Just wondering if anyone has experimented with launching the spin from
a bag in the cockpit (instead of from the retrieval bag). I have done
this for over a decade on a U20 and it is a lot easier on the sail and the
crew... Maybe it is not class legal but should be ok for local phrf sailing.
Cheers,
Joe (#101).
Joe - keep working on the launcher.. once you get use to it you'll never consider going back.
I had trouble with the launcher when we started on the vipe... now, i can get the kite up or down in a matter of seconds.
Not legal for class racing .A few things to do when taking the kite up and down.
Prep; 1.Holmekol the kite it takes 70% of the fiction away.
2. polish the spinnaker hole entrance with PTFE polish.
3.Put line from the top of the turnbuckle down to the hull deck joint to stop the kite from hanging up on the turnbuckle on the port side.
Setting Kite: 1. make sure both sheet can run free , not cleated, not under someones feet , no Bum cleats, pull like your life depends on it, mark halyard so know it is max hoist, pull pole out when 65% up , sheet in and go.
Take downs; Banjo the take down line most important!!!!!!!! have another person break the spin halyard so the person taking it down intensely pulling it in ,very important!!!!! and does not touch the halyard as it runs free, make sure sheets are free to go down the spin hole no bum and foot cleats,pop the pole.
Note on weather strip take downs pull the clew around to the port side ,makes easier take down and better set next time.
Practice Practice it only get easier .
David Guggenheim #109 Black Mamba
Quote from: Guggenheim on November 17, 2009, 11:37:18 AM
Not legal for class racing .A few things to do when taking the kite up and down.
Prep; 1.Holmekol the kite it takes 70% of the fiction away.
2. polish the spinnaker hole entrance with PTFE polish.
3.Put line from the top of the turnbuckle down to the hull deck joint to stop the kite from hanging up on the turnbuckle on the port side.
Setting Kite: 1. make sure both sheet can run free , not cleated, not under someones feet , no Bum cleats, pull like your life depends on it, mark halyard so know it is max hoist, pull pole out when 65% up , sheet in and go.
Take downs; Banjo the take down line most important!!!!!!!! have another person break the spin halyard so the person taking it down intensely pulling it in ,very important!!!!! and does not touch the halyard as it runs free, make sure sheets are free to go down the spin hole no bum and foot cleats,pop the pole.
Note on weather strip take downs pull the clew around to the port side ,makes easier take down and better set next time.
Practice Practice it only get easier .
David Guggenheim #109 Black Mamba
The take down is probably the maneuver that newbie Viper sailors have the most difficulty with. We only do windward and mexican take downs.
To add to what Guggs says on the take down, as forward crew I trip the spinnaker halyard and when one looks forward you could declare a disastrous drop as the kite is completely collapsed and plastered around the bow. Do not fret. As long as you WAIT until the majority of the kite is getting sucked in to release the tack line will everything come out okay. I usually wait until there is the huge bottleneck of spinnaker material, the "douser" gives it one good pull, and then release the rest for them.
Believe me, practice this enough and one can come screaming into the mark and drop with three boatlengths to go no sweat, pending on how good the driver is on the bear away! :P
Gotta Chime in here... we use millionaires tape (3m) on the kite fairlead (big stainless bar) and around the mouth of the launch tube. This helps immensely.
I just spray both sides of the kite around the dousing patches with some McLube and the kite flies down the tube.
We too only run windwards or Latin/Americans (LOL) unless there's just no way to get around Gugg/Pai, then we'll do a leeward on starboard tack =p
With practice, a 3 boat boat length drop is easy...2 is doable. Latin/Americans are doused at the mark.
I raced U20's this weekend...everyone has to douse WAY too early IMHO.
Three boat lengths?????
Wimps!
Try Zimster in the middle. When I turn the helm up to round the mark, he douses the chute.
Okay..I confess, it scared the beejesus out of me.....I would say "Dowse" at Lake Norman and he would reply "Shut up and drive". It was fun.
I need to :
A. Apply Homekol (a snowboard wax) to my spin.
B. Apply PTFE (a teflon polish) to the spin hole.
C. Apply PTFE tape (a teflon tape) around the retreival hole.
D. Apply Mclube to the area around the retrieval patches.
Hopefully, the spinnaker should then flow like water both in and out of
the retrieval hole. (Of course, it goes without saying that all lines need to
be kept to be running free).
My concern up to now was that even if everything was running free, e.g. during a
set, pulling the spin out of the hole required significantly more effort than pulling a spin
out of a bag in the cockpit. The harder you pull the more force/damage to the sail.
Hopefully, with enough grease, practice and sail repair, I will get to appreciate this system.
Cheers,
Joe
homekol makes a product for sails easy to put on , mine lasted a year.
PTFE polish maybe 5 mins to put on every once in a while.
Everything else you do is pretty much the same ,you must not stand on the halyard and sheets so they can run free either way you do it.
Good luck ,
David Guggenheim , Black Mamba #109
My halyard was much too long when i took delivery of the boat.. i trimmed it down but not too much. Before a hoist or douse i toss what's gathered in the back of the boat out in the water. I probably have a 4 or 5 foot tail behind the boat. Seems to work very well, takes the kinks out and i've yet to get a foul (knock on wood).
Our first shot out in the boat was at Charleston Race Week - Friday conditions were pretty heavy. I would say that we had several holes to patch after the party but since, no worries.
One of the best tips i've been given is the line going from under the pole house to a hank on your jib. That keeps the kite off your turn-buckle.
We started doing leward (stb tack) douses a few months ago and seem to have no problem with them. Must be quick!
Quote from: pasciak on November 17, 2009, 10:53:11 PM
I need to :
Hopefully, with enough grease, practice and sail repair, I will get to appreciate this system.
Cheers,
Joe
We've got one more super secret tip to give you......but we can't post it on the forum. We'll email it to you but you have to join the class association and get your contact info on the roster.
Justin:
I already sent in my application (not that I expect any super secret ....)
Cheers,
Joe
Make sure the FBG doesn't put the spin halyard back in the cleat during the take down. When this happens on our boat it's usually followed by heavy drinking on the dock and sometimes even a good old fashioned game of slap face.
Quote from: 119CoolerCaddy on November 19, 2009, 09:46:35 AM
Make sure the FBG doesn't put the spin halyard back in the cleat during the take down. When this happens on our boat it's usually followed by heavy drinking on the dock and sometimes even a good old fashioned game of slap face.
Slap Face = Ouchie
I'd rather broach heavily :D
I am going with Drew on the 3M millionaires tape.
I tried the line around the turnbuckle to the hull but I didn't like it.
I wrap the turnbuckle and toggle in the 3M tape and with quite a few wraps down low to bulk it out a bit and it all seems to run really smoothely now.
The bag idea seems the worst idea ever in a boat that is so weight sensitive.
Also chopping the halyard/retrieval line to the shortest length possible is key to keep kinks out and to stop the excess line being stepped on.
We also changed over to a continuous spin sheet which means that it is not such a big deal if the spin sheet is dropped on the hoist or douse. When I got the boat I had to long spin sheets and we used one of them as our continuous sheet, a bit short but works well. Could be interesting the next time we broach and the spin can't be eased fully but 'hey ho'.
Quote from: soley on November 24, 2009, 09:04:11 AM
We also changed over to a continuous spin sheet which means that it is not such a big deal if the spin sheet is dropped on the hoist or douse. When I got the boat I had to long spin sheets and we used one of them as our continuous sheet, a bit short but works well. Could be interesting the next time we broach and the spin can't be eased fully but 'hey ho'.
Good luck. When we raced the boat for the first time in Charleston we had our spin sheet, jib sheet and probably spin halyrd/take down line too short. It was nice while sailing normally but on even a partial wipeout we couldnt ease enough and couldnt right the boat. Since then we have cut our lines down too as close too minimum as possible but now when a sheet chafes we cant just cut we have too replace it :(
Quote from: Shuck on November 24, 2009, 10:01:37 AM
Quote from: soley on November 24, 2009, 09:04:11 AM
We also changed over to a continuous spin sheet which means that it is not such a big deal if the spin sheet is dropped on the hoist or douse. When I got the boat I had to long spin sheets and we used one of them as our continuous sheet, a bit short but works well. Could be interesting the next time we broach and the spin can't be eased fully but 'hey ho'.
Good luck. When we raced the boat for the first time in Charleston we had our spin sheet, jib sheet and probably spin halyrd/take down line too short. It was nice while sailing normally but on even a partial wipeout we couldnt ease enough and couldnt right the boat. Since then we have cut our lines down too as close too minimum as possible but now when a sheet chafes we cant just cut we have too replace it :(
I just made a new continuous spinsheet. Our old one was 62' and we just couldn't ease it enough in a high speed crash in winds over 20. I've made this one 10' longer with eyes on both ends. I have a short pigtail of 1/8" spectra with an eyesplice in it that I loop through the eyes on the spinnsheet. Now we only have one tiny knot to pull over the headstay.
Damn! I'd like to be your rope salesman :)
I doubt a Melges 32 Spin sheet is that long!
72' does seem a bit steep probably get two normal ones out of that.
Have fun with that rats nest or do you drag it out the back to keep it untangled??? lol
Quote from: soley on November 24, 2009, 03:18:03 PM
72' does seem a bit steep probably get two normal ones out of that.
Have fun with that rats nest or do you drag it out the back to keep it untangled??? lol
How long is your Continuous SpinSheet Tac and Soley. I'm curious to see what others are doing.
No Idea mate.
I am a hack at this, chop it where it seems good and hope for then best.
No science needed
Ok. After almost a year after posting my original message, I would like to reply.... Most of the
responses were "how to deal with the viper retrieval system." The question was, however, does it make
sense to launch from the cockpit. I spent several months experimenting and this is what I found.
A. Launches from the cockpit are quicker and easier. The sail goes up almost effortless compared to
pulling it out of the viper retrieval system.
B. The douses are also quicker and easier... No hard pulling on the retrieval line to get the sail back
into the retrieval bag.
However, there is a major problem. Once you get it down into the cockpit, what do you do with it?
I fabricated a bag but the problem was getting it into the bag. On the u20, melges 24, etc, the bag is
below deck and out of the wind. In these boats, once you get the sail below deck, the sail is not likely
to produce much trouble. With the sail exposed to wind in the cockpit of the viper, there is definitely the
possibility for trouble... After one disaster where I shrimped the sail to the leward side of the boat
(broached and lost considerable time), I have reverted to the original system. Even though it takes much more effort and is much harder on the sail, once the sail is down and in the bag, it is out of sight and out of mind and
one only needs to concentrate on getting the boat in the grove back upwind.
Joe
Have you seen the holmenkol seal'n'glide thread ? Are you using it yet ?
Now that I am using it there is very little friction in the system to complain about.
I love the retrieval system. We typically douse 1 boat length from the mark. goes pretty damn quick if you mexican or weather, both our preferred douses. A leeward takes another length. Add 1-2 more lengths to each if your up on the step.
Holemenkol really helps...plus we have some millionaires tape around the mouth of the retrieval chute.
Quote from: Joe Pasciak on September 15, 2010, 10:05:22 PM
A. Launches from the cockpit are quicker and easier. The sail goes up almost effortless compared to
pulling it out of the viper retrieval system.
B. The douses are also quicker and easier... No hard pulling on the retrieval line to get the sail back
into the retrieval bag.
If there's that much hard pulling, then something is wrong. Yes, it takes a good tug at times, but shouldn't take more.
When I first got the boat, I also thought the system was completely foobar - we spent way too much time pulling the chute out of the water. But once I got it sorted out - oh boy, way better. I often sail with inexperienced crew, and there's no way they would get the chute down into a cockpit bag, but with the Viper system I can steer and handle the retrieval line at the same time and all they have to do is blow the cleat and watch out for the boom. No experience needed. And with 2 experienced crew on board, 1 length from the mark is too far - we drop while rounding. Try that with a cockpit bag!
Quote from: Joe Pasciak on September 15, 2010, 10:05:22 PMOk. After almost a year after posting my original message, I would like to reply.... Most of the
responses were "how to deal with the viper retrieval system." The question was, however, does it make
sense to launch from the cockpit. I spent several months experimenting and this is what I found.
A. Launches from the cockpit are quicker and easier. The sail goes up almost effortless compared to
pulling it out of the viper retrieval system.
B. The douses are also quicker and easier... No hard pulling on the retrieval line to get the sail back
into the retrieval bag.
However, there is a major problem. Once you get it down into the cockpit, what do you do with it?
I fabricated a bag but the problem was getting it into the bag. On the u20, melges 24, etc, the bag is
below deck and out of the wind. In these boats, once you get the sail below deck, the sail is not likely
to produce much trouble. With the sail exposed to wind in the cockpit of the viper, there is definitely the
possibility for trouble... After one disaster where I shrimped the sail to the leward side of the boat
(broached and lost considerable time), I have reverted to the original system. Even though it takes much more effort and is much harder on the sail, once the sail is down and in the bag, it is out of sight and out of mind and
one only needs to concentrate on getting the boat in the grove back upwind.
Joe
Joe, I PHRF my boat and have been launching out of the cockpit. I have a regular rectangular bag and it stuffs in just fine. If you have the bag clipped by its shoulders just aft of the mast to the foredeck height, its pretty easy to get doused.
When we have light air, it can get really light, and it is frustrating watching my sail collapse due to belly cord weight when other PHRF boats are just walking away with their kites.
If I sail OD, or I'm doing buoy races with a guaranteed 10 knots and I'm shorthanded, I use the OD config for the retrieval system, but most the time I sail PHRF in the light air capital of the world. No amount of millionaires tape or lube can take away from the fact that the kite turns into an elephant's rear end in the super light.