Hi, I would like to set up end boom sheeting on my new Viper. The rules have three allowable set ups.... I don't like the look of the end boom option. Can I set it up with the 3:1 at the end oif the boom and and a single block fall to the ratchet block at centre. As well as I would like to be able to adjust the traveller down as wind strength builds. Any help would be appreciated.
JG
Your proposed rigging is not class legal nor is adjusting the bridle while sailing. Proposals to change this rule have been voted in twice in the last three years. It has been opposed both times.
Quote from: Johnno on March 01, 2013, 08:02:01 PM
Hi, I would like to set up end boom sheeting on my new Viper. The rules have three allowable set ups.... I don't like the look of the end boom option. Can I set it up with the 3:1 at the end oif the boom and and a single block fall to the ratchet block at centre. As well as I would like to be able to adjust the traveller down as wind strength builds. Any help would be appreciated.
JG
Johnno...a couple of issues with that setup would be
- Going downwind in a Viper, the driver usually grabs one purchase out fo the mainsheet fall and trims the main that way...similar to what happens with the main trimmer on a M24, M32, etc. It allows you to keep the main trimmed up for sudden acceleration moments.
- No need to 'travel' the boom. We just Vang Sheet and if you're having trouble wailing on enough vang, you should just add a triple block to the deck at the bottom of the fall, put the double on the boom side and viola...16:1 vang. That should be more than enough purchase.
Make sure when you crash that boat you DON'T dump the vang like you might on a boat with a backstay. Vang is one of the keys to keep the rig in the boat with the kite up in big air. Caps, Vang, C-ham and Mainsheet are all your backstay.
I assume by traveller, you mean the "bridle".
As long as you go for one of the two split end mainsheet options you don't need to adjust your bridle height, as the split end mainsheet automatically centers the boom.
You can adjust the bridle length between races but you wont need to.
Upwind the gnav is an important power control. In light and medium we keep the boom on centerline. In honking breeze, we will whale on gnav and ease mainsheet/boom to leeward in the big puffs.
You will be astonished how much power you can take out of the Viper as the wind builds. We have more power than the other 20s in the light, but we are much less overpowered when the breeze goes supersonic. With 5 1/2 inches of prebend, the gnav on hard and a wide slot, it can be quite civilized on the windward rail in 25 knots.
If you put the purchase on the back of the boom you wont ever be able to center the boom. the idea of the split tail sheet is to pull the split into the block in the back which pulls it to windward. With the blocks in the back your boom would fall 6-8" to leward. Not legal anyway.
I personally would like to go to center boom trim with split tail as a class. Safer that way.
Look closely at the boat in front, this is illegal then!
Quote from: Lee Shuckerow on March 02, 2013, 07:25:07 PM
If you put the purchase on the back of the boom you wont ever be able to center the boom. the idea of the split tail sheet is to pull the split into the block in the back which pulls it to windward. With the blocks in the back your boom would fall 6-8" to leward. Not legal anyway.
I personally would like to go to center boom trim with split tail as a class. Safer that way.
You're preaching to the choir Shuck. :-D
Johnno,
You have to have the bridle in the middle of the boat, even with the split tail option. It's just the rules. I take my bridle strap it tight to the cockpit sole with some smallish amsteel laced so you can tighten it up. Still have a bridle but it doesn't float at all. Just a mounting point for the necessary block in the mainsheet fall. Keeps the middle of the boat much simpler. I also use a small bungie retracter on the tails of the aft so they don't foul on the tiller or rudder head.
I have a new boat enroute and when I set it up, I'll post pics.
Correct, the set up on the boat in front in that photo is like on a 49er and is not currently class legal. It is a set up that was included in a proposed rule change in 2012 - but that proposal did not pass.
Dave N - tech comm.
That setup needs to keep getting brought up for a vote until it passes. I tried it last year in PHRF and it was the cleanest possible setup in the cockpit. There was a good reason that the VX has end boom/end bridle as the default.
jason
Quote from: Drew Harper on March 03, 2013, 10:28:10 AM
Quote from: Lee Shuckerow on March 02, 2013, 07:25:07 PM
If you put the purchase on the back of the boom you wont ever be able to center the boom. the idea of the split tail sheet is to pull the split into the block in the back which pulls it to windward. With the blocks in the back your boom would fall 6-8" to leward. Not legal anyway.
I personally would like to go to center boom trim with split tail as a class. Safer that way.
You're preaching to the choir Shuck. :-D
Johnno,
You have to have the bridle in the middle of the boat, even with the split tail option. It's just the rules. I take my bridle strap it tight to the cockpit sole with some smallish amsteel laced so you can tighten it up. Still have a bridle but it doesn't float at all. Just a mounting point for the necessary block in the mainsheet fall. Keeps the middle of the boat much simpler. I also use a small bungie retracter on the tails of the aft so they don't foul on the tiller or rudder head.
I have a new boat enroute and when I set it up, I'll post pics.
Thanks Drew.... my question arises from the fact that the pics in the rules aren't totally clear and I happen to have a prefernce for a simple end boom set up... Your comments re "power control" downhill are valid... look forward to pics. Time to start experimenting...
That is a really nice set-up but I don't think it would work well on a viper.
The attachment points for the aft bridal on the Vx are all the way on the stern where the vipers are about a foot forward. The Vx also has a really long boom and the vipers stops well short of the stern. So... There's not really any danger of all those strings getting close to the tiller end whereas on the viper I would think you'd need a lot of stretches to keep it off.
Someone said it earlier - full on center boom is the safest, cleanest system. But in light to moderate split tail end sheeting is faster so that's what I've got.
As a side note... If your not class racing do whatever you want.
Quote from: Jason Hyerstay on March 03, 2013, 02:18:10 PM
That setup needs to keep getting brought up for a vote until it passes. I tried it last year in PHRF and it was the cleanest possible setup in the cockpit. There was a good reason that the VX has end boom/end bridle as the default.
jason
Actually it worked really well. They were to leeward and ahead of us and fetched the weather mark where we had to do a short hitch. They were a good 3-5 degrees higher with same speed. But I have mid boom setup.
FYI, it's the boat you had at last years sd noods jones. Just been refurbed this winter.
I experimented with a VX-One type system and LOVED it! As you can see in the photo, I didn't need a single piece of extra hardware. I just moved the forward bridle to the back and used the extra block I had removed from the spin take-up system. Keeps boom centered, and when the breeze was up, it was SO nice having the 3-1purchase at the end of the boom. Down-side: couldn't really pump the main while going downwind. Up-side: you can move the mid-boom turning block WAY forward to get more room to tack the tiller extension. You can see I added a little "gybing line" down from the mid-boom block to help pull the main across quickly. This is the system I would love the class adopt as a one-design.
-Jimbo
Oh, yeah... I bought my mainsheet extra long so I could try this before I cut it down for the class-legal system.
-Jimbo
Quote from: Jim Sears on March 05, 2013, 12:52:59 AM
I experimented with a VX-One type system and LOVED it! As you can see in the photo, I didn't need a single piece of extra hardware. I just moved the forward bridle to the back and used the extra block I had removed from the spin take-up system. Keeps boom centered, and when the breeze was up, it was SO nice having the 3-1purchase at the end of the boom. Down-side: couldn't really pump the main while going downwind. Up-side: you can move the mid-boom turning block WAY forward to get more room to tack the tiller extension. You can see I added a little "gybing line" down from the mid-boom block to help pull the main across quickly. This is the system I would love the class adopt as a one-design.
-Jimbo
My youngest son is terrified of that system....he hates spiders and I'm certain one would move in there ;-)
Quote from: Jim Sears on March 05, 2013, 12:52:59 AM
I experimented with a VX-One type system and LOVED it! As you can see in the photo, I didn't need a single piece of extra hardware. I just moved the forward bridle to the back and used the extra block I had removed from the spin take-up system. Keeps boom centered, and when the breeze was up, it was SO nice having the 3-1purchase at the end of the boom. Down-side: couldn't really pump the main while going downwind. Up-side: you can move the mid-boom turning block WAY forward to get more room to tack the tiller extension. You can see I added a little "gybing line" down from the mid-boom block to help pull the main across quickly. This is the system I would love the class adopt as a one-design.
-Jimbo
In puffy conditions with waves, I think you would be passed downwind. We tried this set up in Marblehead where we have nice rollers to catch a ride on. Its slow downwind. Its critical to play the main with less purchase.
but if are too aggressive with the main, you might end up on your side (eh mambo)
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 06, 2013, 12:31:32 PM
Quote from: Jim Sears on March 05, 2013, 12:52:59 AM
I experimented with a VX-One type system and LOVED it! As you can see in the photo, I didn't need a single piece of extra hardware. I just moved the forward bridle to the back and used the extra block I had removed from the spin take-up system. Keeps boom centered, and when the breeze was up, it was SO nice having the 3-1purchase at the end of the boom. Down-side: couldn't really pump the main while going downwind. Up-side: you can move the mid-boom turning block WAY forward to get more room to tack the tiller extension. You can see I added a little "gybing line" down from the mid-boom block to help pull the main across quickly. This is the system I would love the class adopt as a one-design.
-Jimbo
In puffy conditions with waves, I think you would be passed downwind. We tried this set up in Marblehead where we have nice rollers to catch a ride on. Its slow downwind. Its critical to play the main with less purchase.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on March 06, 2013, 01:10:06 PM
but if are too aggressive with the main, you might end up on your side (eh mambo)
Zing!
Quote from: Jim Sears on March 05, 2013, 12:52:59 AM
I experimented with a VX-One type system and LOVED it! As you can see in the photo, I didn't need a single piece of extra hardware. I just moved the forward bridle to the back and used the extra block I had removed from the spin take-up system. Keeps boom centered, and when the breeze was up, it was SO nice having the 3-1purchase at the end of the boom. Down-side: couldn't really pump the main while going downwind. Up-side: you can move the mid-boom turning block WAY forward to get more room to tack the tiller extension. You can see I added a little "gybing line" down from the mid-boom block to help pull the main across quickly. This is the system I would love the class adopt as a one-design.
-Jimbo
I had this system for a while (before it became totally illegal), it is by far the best system and worked perfectly. I battled for a couple of years to try and get this system legalised before I realised the thinking heads couldn't think out side the box and realise the benefits. Now its on the VX One and everyone is ohhing and ahhing over it. (Was on my boat way before the VX was developed I think they stole the idea from me)
I actually had mine a little slicker than yours but that is because I designed the main sheet system that way then switched to the average legal system.
It was not outlawed because of complexity (that old duffers like drew are scared of) but because it had a small leverage advantage. i.e. Less sheet tension in your hand for the same leech tension. My argument was that if it was leaglised the majority of the class would gravitate towards that system. It also costs nothing to change over to and only takes 5 minutes to execute.
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 06, 2013, 12:31:32 PM
In puffy conditions with waves, I think you would be passed downwind. We tried this set up in Marblehead where we have nice rollers to catch a ride on. Its slow downwind. Its critical to play the main with less purchase.
What I always did was to cleat off the sheet in a loose position and grab the sheet on the boom and just use the inside block as a 2:1 for the run. Super fast to pump on the waves.
Illegal? Pics from the front page!
Photos from 2008? (Justin in Newport) and 2009 (Griffin in St. Pete). Different rule at that point in time.
Thanks Dave,
I'm Switching from mid boom split to rear split. Seems the top boats prefer rear boom split. Someone should Probably should take take those pictures down. I know of one boat using that system and I'm sure the left coast tech committee will have a talk with him.
"What I always did was to cleat off the sheet in a loose position and grab the sheet on the boom and just use the inside block as a 2:1 for the run. Super fast to pump on the waves."
I like that idea Matt! That was the only reason I didn't like the VX-Sole system... shall we try to get this rule passed again?
When I was testing the aft bridle/aft split-tail system, I used an extra set of attachment points that were on #42, which were like D rings on the aft gunnel corners. These were where I tied the split tail ends. I only recently realized that these attachment points were not on other boats, as we used them all the time when tying up at the dock. I generally haven't pushed for any rule changes that require drilling any holes, but this would be an easy modification, since you have easy access to the top and undersides of the gunnel. Something to think about. I'll see if I can find a photo.
jason
There is no need to drill more holes. Both the split tail and bridle set up neatly fit on the same padeyes. Thoughtful block placement on the boom keeps everything running nicely.
From a boat sales perspective, more leverage or purchase in the mainsheet would be a good thing. Or at least an option for it.
There are potential skippers do express concern about wanting a more powerful mainsheet system. Including, but not exclusively, women buyers/drivers.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Finally! One of the thinking heads is thinking!
Quote from: Matt Sole on March 26, 2013, 07:25:02 PM
Finally! One of the thinking heads is thinking!
Who dat?
I have no more input into class rules than anyone else. Maybe less!
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
So how can we get this brought up for a vote again? I really don't want another bridle in the middle of my cockpit. There is already plenty of stuff to trip/slip on.
Kevin - take a quick look at section 8 of the class constitution on the website. Send me an email with proposed rule change language and a reasonable justification. The beginning of the class rules has a summary of the criteria we'll all be looking at. The TC will help make sure it's voteable and simple to implement if it passes.
Dave
Quote from: Dave Nickerson on March 24, 2013, 04:11:28 PM
Photos from 2008? (Justin in Newport) and 2009 (Griffin in St. Pete). Different rule at that point in time.
Both of those pictures are from the old "Single aft bridle, 3:1" purchase system without split end mainsheet. I sailed with that system, although neither of those pics is me.
In those days there was still only a choice of two mainsheet systems, aft bridle or mid bridle. The top guys used the aft bridle to get more leech tension BUT IT WAS BRUTAL (a) Because it had much less purchase than any of the current modern systems and required lots of arm strength to play upwind in any kind of breeze and (b) It was critical to adjust the bridle length between every race in order to keep the boom centered. Those who didn't adjust their bridle frequently would find themselves unable to point with the front of the fleet.
The split end mainsheet revolutionized Viper sailing upwind. It made the boat easier to sail upwind and had the immediate effect of levelling the playing field. It was probably on of the best upgrades the class members have ever made.
Anyone who wants to go back to the system in those pictures probably feels nostalgic about the aluminum mast as well.
Quote from: Jim Sears on March 24, 2013, 06:23:16 PM
"What I always did was to cleat off the sheet in a loose position and grab the sheet on the boom and just use the inside block as a 2:1 for the run. Super fast to pump on the waves."
I like that idea Matt! That was the only reason I didn't like the VX-Sole system... shall we try to get this rule passed again?
Try it first Jim, you wont like it.
(i) On the existing system, you can grab the mainsheet from the boom and you shed all the superfluos purchase in the mainsheet immediately and you can really "feel" the puffs downwind and react as quickly as your spin trimmer can talk to you. The double ended aft bridle still has double the purchase behind you and is less effective downwind in puffs.
(ii) Gybes can be much more aggresive because you grab the "bundle" at the top of the mid bridle and whip the boom across. It makes roll gybes much easier (+you have the bridle to grab and pull yourself to windward as you come out of the gybe).
My 2 cents
i think it's pretty silly to hamstring kevin into using a "superior" mainsheet system when he would rather sail with something he's more comfortable with.
I might have a different opinion if you and I were using the same rudder.
Quote from: Justin Scott on April 02, 2013, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Dave Nickerson on March 24, 2013, 04:11:28 PM
Photos from 2008? (Justin in Newport) and 2009 (Griffin in St. Pete). Different rule at that point in time.
Both of those pictures are from the old "Single aft bridle, 3:1" purchase system without split end mainsheet. I sailed with that system, although neither of those pics is me.
In those days there was still only a choice of two mainsheet systems, aft bridle or mid bridle. The top guys used the aft bridle to get more leech tension BUT IT WAS BRUTAL (a) Because it had much less purchase than any of the current modern systems and required lots of arm strength to play upwind in any kind of breeze and (b) It was critical to adjust the bridle length between every race in order to keep the boom centered. Those who didn't adjust their bridle frequently would find themselves unable to point with the front of the fleet.
The split end mainsheet revolutionized Viper sailing upwind. It made the boat easier to sail upwind and had the immediate effect of levelling the playing field. It was probably on of the best upgrades the class members have ever made.
Anyone who wants to go back to the system in those pictures probably feels nostalgic about the aluminum mast as well.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on April 02, 2013, 06:23:33 PM
i think it's pretty silly to hamstring kevin into using a "superior" mainsheet system when he would rather sail with something he's more comfortable with.
I might have a different opinion if you and I were using the same rudder.
Quote from: Justin Scott on April 02, 2013, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Dave Nickerson on March 24, 2013, 04:11:28 PM
Photos from 2008? (Justin in Newport) and 2009 (Griffin in St. Pete). Different rule at that point in time.
Both of those pictures are from the old "Single aft bridle, 3:1" purchase system without split end mainsheet. I sailed with that system, although neither of those pics is me.
In those days there was still only a choice of two mainsheet systems, aft bridle or mid bridle. The top guys used the aft bridle to get more leech tension BUT IT WAS BRUTAL (a) Because it had much less purchase than any of the current modern systems and required lots of arm strength to play upwind in any kind of breeze and (b) It was critical to adjust the bridle length between every race in order to keep the boom centered. Those who didn't adjust their bridle frequently would find themselves unable to point with the front of the fleet.
The split end mainsheet revolutionized Viper sailing upwind. It made the boat easier to sail upwind and had the immediate effect of levelling the playing field. It was probably on of the best upgrades the class members have ever made.
Anyone who wants to go back to the system in those pictures probably feels nostalgic about the aluminum mast as well.
JJ...I thought you had one of the Crook rudders?
I have both.
Quote from: Drew Harper on April 03, 2013, 10:53:18 AM
Quote from: Jeff Jones on April 02, 2013, 06:23:33 PM
i think it's pretty silly to hamstring kevin into using a "superior" mainsheet system when he would rather sail with something he's more comfortable with.
I might have a different opinion if you and I were using the same rudder.
Quote from: Justin Scott on April 02, 2013, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: Dave Nickerson on March 24, 2013, 04:11:28 PM
Photos from 2008? (Justin in Newport) and 2009 (Griffin in St. Pete). Different rule at that point in time.
Both of those pictures are from the old "Single aft bridle, 3:1" purchase system without split end mainsheet. I sailed with that system, although neither of those pics is me.
In those days there was still only a choice of two mainsheet systems, aft bridle or mid bridle. The top guys used the aft bridle to get more leech tension BUT IT WAS BRUTAL (a) Because it had much less purchase than any of the current modern systems and required lots of arm strength to play upwind in any kind of breeze and (b) It was critical to adjust the bridle length between every race in order to keep the boom centered. Those who didn't adjust their bridle frequently would find themselves unable to point with the front of the fleet.
The split end mainsheet revolutionized Viper sailing upwind. It made the boat easier to sail upwind and had the immediate effect of levelling the playing field. It was probably on of the best upgrades the class members have ever made.
Anyone who wants to go back to the system in those pictures probably feels nostalgic about the aluminum mast as well.
JJ...I thought you had one of the Crook rudders?
Dave - I'll write something up and submit it.
As for all the other comments, I didn't realize how emotionally attached everyone is to paticular mainsheet systems. All the more reason to allow different configurations, as long as they don't provide a clear advantage and don't cost a lot of money to retro-fit.
I just sent Dave a request with the proposed class rule change. I am also posting the proposed language and diagram here so other members can review it.
Here is the proposed language change.
Nice Kevin, thanks. If this ever passes, I'll give it a try. I'd love the clear center cockpit this gives you.
I have made a correction to the proposed langauge. The purchase is 3:1 instead of 2:1 as originally stated.
This would certainly make the boat easier to sail:
1) the 3:1 on boom-end makes playing main upwind more manageable.
2) allows mid-boom turning block to be moved WAY forward to give more room to tack tiller extension.
also cleans up middle of cockpit
-Jimbo
The language for the rule is ok but it could be simplified.
Also we can not keep coming up with these rule changes without having a consensus before the rule is proposed.
The last time the mainsheet rule was changed the class head honchos had a consensus for the current rule but did not try and garner any support for second part of the vote that opened up the rule to allow the aft bridle and split tail arrangement. In fact the class governor biased the vote by telling people about his recommendation. This I believe should not be the role of the Governor to tell people how to vote.
So the following needs to be accomplished before the rule change is put to a vote;
1. Find out how many voting class members there are.
2. What percentage voted in the last rule change and what the winning margin was.
3. Ensure the is support for the rule change from the class management.
4. Garner support from the class membership so that the rule will pass.
You can always put up a rule change, there are bylaws for it. Unless there is a general class support for the change, what is the point?