"The way we gybe chutes (early rotation) now came directly from crewing on Melges 24s. "
From Justin on SA. Can someone explain? Is this related to Shuckerow's "chicken gybe" discussed on another thread?
My gybing technique has only got as far as yelling at the crew not to stand on the sheet. Any tips on new methods gratefully received.
Matt CAN 70
Rotate early. Helm follows the spin trimmer rather than vice versa.
Trimmer eases chute and helm comes down, sorta simultaneous.
Then as soon as chute starts to break, trimmer lets go on massive ease so clew floats forward of headstay. Then hauls in on new sheet. But helm stays on same gybe and mainsail isnt gybed.
As clews crosses headstay helm goes ddw and starts gybe, but main is still in place. As spin starts to trim in new side, heave main across,gybe and hike. (and maybe a little countersteer to make sure u dont round up)
Hopefully spin is already across and fills immediately. Rattler is pinned beneath you and jest roll 'em.
Quote from: Justin Scott on May 21, 2011, 12:39:14 PM
Rotate early. Helm follows the spin trimmer rather than vice versa.
Trimmer eases chute and helm comes down, sorta simultaneous.
Then as soon as chute starts to break, trimmer lets go on massive ease so clew floats forward of headstay. Then hauls in on new sheet. But helm stays on same gybe and mainsail isnt gybed.
As clews crosses headstay helm goes ddw and starts gybe, but main is still in place. As spin starts to trim in new side, heave main across,gybe and hike. (and maybe a little countersteer to make sure u dont round up)
Hopefully spin is already across and fills immediately. Rattler is pinned beneath you and jest roll 'em.
That's pretty much how I would describe it too as a relative rookie. They KEY concept is to let the kite's clew float forward of the headstay. This is done by blowing the kite BEFORE gybing. Otherwise the kite gets blown into the rig and you have to drag the kite around the forestay, usually with the spin sheet knots getting caught on top of that. I've been calling it: "ready to gybe, blow it, gybing", and I watch to make sure the clew is clear before altering course beyond dead down.
Also, as soon as the clew floats in front of the forestay and the gybe turn starts, the trimmer needs to HAUL the kite in with the new sheet as fast as possible, again to keep the wind from blowing the kite into itself (which can result in an hourglass and the very least lots of friction and a slow re-inflation). However, as soon as the kite is fully free on the new gybe and starts to inflate, blow it again because it's going to be overtrimmed (i.e control it). Otherwise it will heel the boat over to leeward and you round up. The third man and skipper should be ready to LEAP on the gunwale as soon as you have more than a few degrees of leeward heel on the new gybe, especially in heavy air.
Finally, it takes a fine touch on the helm to get all this initiated and complete. Too much and you immediately cause problems for the crew and likely will broach, and also you can throw the crew around pretty good the cockpit. Keep in mind that as the wind and boat speed picks up, your gybe angle decreases. So in 18+knots, you probably don't need to turn more than 10-20 degrees to complete the gybe. Then when it's complete, dial back in. Better safe than sorry and you won't have slowed down much anyway.
In light air it's a little different. You still want to float it around in much the same manner, but after it's around you want keep some leeward heel to let gravity help fill the kite. Maybe even heat it up a little anyway to compensate for the speed lost in the gybe itself. Much of your apparent can be from boat speed, so if you lose the speed by collapsing the kite entirely then you might not even be able to re-inflate it.
Please correct me if I'm wrong... :-)
"Re-inflation"? Has Olaf introduced a new word to the viper vocabular?
Quote from: Justin Scott on May 22, 2011, 06:52:07 AM
"Re-inflation"? Has Olaf introduced a new word to the viper vocabular?
I think JJ and his inflatable crew made that introduction in AZ this year....
What's been described above is good light-medium breeze technique. I had a kid sailing with me in Miami this year who was phenomenal trimming in the heavy air. He was trimming a M32 the week prior, taught me skiff-style "blow through" technique for big breeze, which is pretty much the opposite of above. Rotate the boat onto the new heading, DON"T ease the old sheet and rotate the kite until on new heading. Essentially like a Mexican douse. Devastatingly quick and controlled, no need to overtrim to "re-inflate", no danger of round-ups. I was truly astounded at how quick and comfortable it was.
Quote from: Dan Tucker on May 23, 2011, 10:10:35 AM
What's been described above is good light-medium breeze technique. I had a kid sailing with me in Miami this year who was phenomenal trimming in the heavy air. He was trimming a M32 the week prior, taught me skiff-style "blow through" technique for big breeze, which is pretty much the opposite of above. Rotate the boat onto the new heading, DON"T ease the old sheet and rotate the kite until on new heading. Essentially like a Mexican douse. Devastatingly quick and controlled, no need to overtrim to "re-inflate", no danger of round-ups. I was truly astounded at how quick and comfortable it was.
How's that work? Seems like it would be hell on the sail, no?
Bust Out Another Thousand.
What we need here is some videos...
Blow through is pretty typical here. Not really much wear on the kite. We keep ours heavily sedated with holmenkol though. Early main (what we can them...blow thru has a different meaning in SF :-) gybes allow the boat to get through the gybe quickly but gets pretty wild in breeze much above 27 TWS and is dicey in huge chop. The boat can Mexican crash with the kite on the wrong side and it gets sketchy quickly when that happens. In that breeze we just plane down on a puff, flip the main and kite at the same time with a short turn to weather for fill and a coordinated hike on the rail to roll her downwind and flatten the boat to pop back onto a ballistic plane.
I actually think the skiff style gybe is less hurt on the sail than dragging the clew around the forestay.
It sort of pops through and fills at the same time. Wicked fast and no flogging the spin.
Dan is correct on how you should jibe a viper 90% of the time. We have done this for the past year and can't believe how well it works.in breeze you never come off a plane...
Quote from: Brad Boston on May 23, 2011, 09:49:10 PM
Dan is correct on how you should jibe a viper 90% of the time. We have done this for the past year and can't believe how well it works.in breeze you never come off a plane...
Thanks for the responses--lots here to try out. Brad, what's the 10% exception? very light? very breezy? both?
Very light.
Quote from: Brad Boston on May 23, 2011, 09:49:10 PM
Dan is correct on how you should jibe a viper 90% of the time. We have done this for the past year and can't believe how well it works.in breeze you never come off a plane...
Am I understanding this correctly:
Step 1, turn and gybe the main (and jib?), don't ease the chute
Step 2, gybe the chute
Quote from: Jay Harrell on May 24, 2011, 10:43:33 AM
Quote from: Brad Boston on May 23, 2011, 09:49:10 PM
Dan is correct on how you should jibe a viper 90% of the time. We have done this for the past year and can't believe how well it works.in breeze you never come off a plane...
Am I understanding this correctly:
Step 1, turn and gybe the main (and jib?), don't ease the chute
Step 2, gybe the chute
We need a video...
I have one but I need to find it. Last fall we shot a bunch on and off the boat.
It's something like this: http://www.blur.se/2010/01/15/antligen-fredag-128/ (first 10 seconds), but don't let that stop Brad from posting video -- would love to see what he has.
What Brad is getting at is that in the light you take the jib down to help fill the kite. If you try this manoeuvre without the jib, the spin will blow right through the fore triangle.
One thing I learnt a little differently about the skiff gybe is to pull the sheet tightish on the soon to be old side, release as you get to the bottom of the gybe, pull like a bastard on the new sheet and it will pop into shape on the new gybe. There is no load on the new sheet just pulling in excess generally until the kite snaps full.
If planing, the blow through is by far the fastest gybe.
We tried blow through in medium/light this weekend and it works good in those conditions as well. Its going to become the default gybe (use in most conditions) in the class.
In what conditions is the blow trough gybe not the default?
In the light conditions. It is generally accepted that in the light, the jib comes down to sail down wind. You can't do the skiff style gybe with out a jib or it will blow through inside the fore triangle.
this is it, but it's kinda hard to see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlNIe1lkDXg&feature=related
it's funny, the SB3 actually has a great video about the boat and how to rig/sail it. I had one ~4 years ago before they imported them. It had a demo on how to do this, but I can't find it on youtube... It doesn't sound like it'd work, and w/o a jib it DOES NOT, but with a jib it's crazy how well it works.
here's another at 0:55 ish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZyS0GkCy-E&feature=related
and another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu0snjSuE_w
One difference for the boats in those videos - their spinnakers have very little overlap with the jib compared to the Viper. You get a bit more drag around the forestay on the V, but it still works about the same.
Went out this weekend to teach our new third (venomiss) skiffy gybes. It was a bit light to nail these as the boat was barely planing. Went out under the gate to practice but it was puffing to 30 and just not the best place to practice this. Crashed wildly at the south tower demon and well, that was it. white sailed home as we doused the kite AFU'd
Here's the light stuff video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdnY3HqvmG8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I dont think Dan should have moved this to the public forums.
This is a "members only" technique.
Kind of bummed this is becoming common knowledge, used to able to take a boat or two downwind by gybing quicker.
Nicest thing is that if you do it at the right point, you just throw a wall of f'd up air downwind of you ....lol
Quote from: Justin Scott on June 01, 2011, 05:40:03 PM
I dont think Dan should have moved this to the public forums.
This is a "members only" technique.
Share the love! What happened to helping the newbies and back-o-the-packers learn? :-P
Quote from: Dan Tucker on June 02, 2011, 11:30:33 AM
Quote from: Justin Scott on June 01, 2011, 05:40:03 PM
I dont think Dan should have moved this to the public forums.
This is a "members only" technique.
Share the love! What happened to helping the newbies and back-o-the-packers learn? :-P
Surely Justin meant to put a smiley face on his comments.... Right justin, just being a bit sarcastic, right? :-)
You know what, when you cock up and you are back 'o' pack, you need a little sumthin to get out of back 'o' pack.
Quote from: Dan Tucker on June 02, 2011, 11:30:33 AM
Quote from: Justin Scott on June 01, 2011, 05:40:03 PM
I dont think Dan should have moved this to the public forums.
This is a "members only" technique.
Share the love! What happened to helping the newbies and back-o-the-packers learn? :-P
Absolutely! As long as they pay their $40 and join the class association.
and yes,if there was a smiley face function on our forum, it would be there.
So as I read this, it it all good stuff and has really helped us in our gybes, but how is everyone attaching the sheet to the clew? I have a small 10" painter that I spliced into the original spin sheet and have a small ball on the end and use a sort of dinghy hitch to attach, but that damn thing still gets caugh on the forestay when it's light out.
What's the pro way of attaching this?
Thanks!
-Scott
Scott, we had the same set up and the same problem. We ditched the ball and just tie a bowline, sprayed Mclube on the forestay and clew of chute as well as the painter line and that part of sheets. Seems to help a lot! The helm also needs to turn slow enough to give the trimmer enough time to float the clew in front of the forestay (if there is even enough wind to do it!!). If it doesn't work, the helm then blames the trimmer and the trimmer in turns blames the helm.
Disclaimer: this is NOT even close to pro opinion as requested!!
Ohh! Ok, as I shamlessly stole your set up once Austin showed it to me ;) I'll rock the bowline and see how that goes, seems like less to snag on. I'll also work on blaming the crew more.
Class rulz say no tapered spin sheets...grrrrrrrr so we spliced coreless eyes into the end of the sheet and tie a 1/8" spectra pigtail onto those.
Never really have a hangup but skiff gybes have considerable sail momentum as the clew passes the headstay so that does help.
Late main gybes (light air rollers) the clew never touches the headstay so there's never an issue.
Quote from: Scott Ellis on July 09, 2011, 01:12:21 PM
So as I read this, it it all good stuff and has really helped us in our gybes, but how is everyone attaching the sheet to the clew? I have a small 10" painter that I spliced into the original spin sheet and have a small ball on the end and use a sort of dinghy hitch to attach, but that damn thing still gets caugh on the forestay when it's light out.
What's the pro way of attaching this?
Thanks!
-Scott
Check this thread for how I do it: http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=272.0 Short pigtail bowline's to the clew.
Justin and I sailed my boat together in Marblehead on Saturday, shifty and gusting anywhere between 12-20. While he steered the 2nd race, I trimmed and schooled him on what a proper skiffy gybe looks like. It was fun, I've only ever helmed for it. Nailed it more than I missed it. Keys are getting all the slack out of the new sheet before gybing, and trimming the old sheet a couple of feet as you roll into the gybe. Once the kite blows through it's only 2 good pulls to trimming and planing. MUCH less work than floating the clew around.
I blame the 3rd race downwind broach on him botching one of his trimming attempts! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ;)
The 3rd race upwind crash, yeah, that was me falling down in the back of the bus! Thanks for swimming Justin :-P
Quote from: Dan Tucker on July 11, 2011, 09:24:42 AM
Quote from: Scott Ellis on July 09, 2011, 01:12:21 PM
So as I read this, it it all good stuff and has really helped us in our gybes, but how is everyone attaching the sheet to the clew? I have a small 10" painter that I spliced into the original spin sheet and have a small ball on the end and use a sort of dinghy hitch to attach, but that damn thing still gets caugh on the forestay when it's light out.
What's the pro way of attaching this?
Thanks!
-Scott
Check this thread for how I do it: http://forum.viper640.org/index.php?topic=272.0 Short pigtail bowline's to the clew.
Justin and I sailed my boat together in Marblehead on Saturday, shifty and gusting anywhere between 12-20. While he steered the 2nd race, I trimmed and schooled him on what a proper skiffy gybe looks like. It was fun, I've only ever helmed for it. Nailed it more than I missed it. Keys are getting all the slack out of the new sheet before gybing, and trimming the old sheet a couple of feet as you roll into the gybe. Once the kite blows through it's only 2 good pulls to trimming and planing. MUCH less work than floating the clew around.
I blame the 3rd race downwind broach on him botching one of his trimming attempts! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ;)
The 3rd race upwind crash, yeah, that was me falling down in the back of the bus! Thanks for swimming Justin :-P
Pics or it didn't happen... :-D
Dan and Justin on the same boat, where the hell is the GoPro camera for that one??????
Quote from: Drew Harper on July 10, 2011, 12:05:44 PM
Late main gybes (light air rollers) the clew never touches the headstay so there's never an issue.
What's a "late main gybe"?
floater gybe.... slow roll downwind as you ease the clew to just forward of the headstay rolling the headstay past the clew and allowing the sail to fill on the new side before you gybe the main.
Also known as the wing and wing gybe, gybe chute first then main. Its gone out of fashion as the blo' thru' gybe has proven better in all but the lightest conditions.
Lmao....Brad taught me that gybe back in th U20 days. He'd come into the mark on port tack, sail deep, flop over the main onto starboard outside the circle and suddenly have rights. I've used that one many-a-time since then. Thanks Brad.
Floaters work well in anything up to 8, past that skiff gybes are good up to about 28 TWS then the Viper gets a bit funky and needs more of a flick on the gybe, especially in 4' chop. The kite can't blow through the headstay fast enough so the backwinding crashes the boat. We tend to resort back to floaters then as the main will keep the boat fully planing. Vipers get a bit 'squishy' on the helm going DDW in that breeze so we sail with metric shiploads of rake in those conditions and the rig is REALLY wound on. 12+ turns above base.
Quote from: Justin Scott on July 12, 2011, 10:24:38 AM
Also known as the wing and wing gybe, gybe chute first then main. Its gone out of fashion as the blo' thru' gybe has proven better in all but the lightest conditions.
Quote from: Drew Harper on July 12, 2011, 10:57:58 AM
Floaters work well in anything up to 8, past that skiff gybes are good up to about 28 TWS then the Viper gets a bit funky and needs more of a flick on the gybe, especially in 4' chop. The kite can't blow through the headstay fast enough so the backwinding crashes the boat. We tend to resort back to floaters then as the main will keep the boat fully planing. Vipers get a bit 'squishy' on the helm going DDW in that breeze so we sail with metric shiploads of rake in those conditions and the rig is REALLY wound on. 12+ turns above base.
I just had a frustrating weekend of howling gales (in which we didn't even try to race). It quickly became apparent that as the wind builds the regular tuning guide from this site (and that comes with the owners manual) just doesn't work. 12+ turns seems closer to the mark given what we were seeing while trying to beat home in 20-25 and a short 4' chop. Does anyone have another tuning guide for the carbon rig? Or maybe just some experience-based info that has worked in the past? We can set up for the lighter stuff just fine but we've had precious little of that this year and it's starting to get irritating. Thanks.
Luke.
What sails are you using Luke? It's wildly dependent on the sail set.
A couple of general points. We sail with a much longer headstay length to add rake to the rig in big air. This helps considerably..
It opens the slot between the main and jib....it presents a different profile of the main chord and camber to the wind, effectively producing more skyward lift and a more draft forward look, moves ce aft and helps counter the effects of the apparent wind change over the bumps....it allows the rig to depower via tipoff more effectively...
Cap shroud tension is key but you want to avoid inverting the main as this puts draft way back. It's important to get a strong handle on vang sheeting and putting a brut on jib trim. You have to ease the jib in the puffs and ease the main only in the big puffs. If you are only easing the main, you are effectively powering up the jib. Easing the jib in the puffs is a constant....even in lighter air as is allows the boat to squirt forward with each increase in apparent wind and the shift aft isn apparent wind direction.
This is my take and I'm hoping Brad will jump in and give us his considerable sails makers insight on this important tuning issue.
I have asked both Brad/Tac Boston (Doyle Boston) along with Chris Winnard (Ullman) to hello rewrite the tuning guide. I'm working on a bunch various issues right now that takes precedence over this but hopefully we can get to work on it soon.
In a perfect world, I'd love to do a DVD tuning guide complete with pics of desired sail shapes and rig tune for various wind strength/sea conditions for the great visual aid it can be. This would be part two of the Viper DVD kit...the first part would be the owners manual, assembly guide....<sigh> if I just had a lot more time.
Luke, make sure you are starting at the right base value with the loos gauge called out. I had the type A gauge instead of the PT-1 and I was always under tuning my rig. Mother nature helped me ditch the gauge overboard and that's when I realized my mistake. 32 on a PT-1 is not the same as on a type A etc.
Quote from: Robert Bernard on July 16, 2011, 09:04:22 PM
Luke, make sure you are starting at the right base value with the loos gauge called out. I had the type A gauge instead of the PT-1 and I was always under tuning my rig. Mother nature helped me ditch the gauge overboard and that's when I realized my mistake. 32 on a PT-1 is not the same as on a type A etc.
This might be the base of the problem. I've got a type A gauge. Does anyone have a PT-1 to type A translation?
Drew: We have the stock Hyde sails, if that helps any. The forestay is set to the recommended length from the tuning guide and I'm not sure how much more we can lengthen it, there's a lot of thread showing. We haven't been burping the jib in the puffs, we'll try that on Wednesday and see what happens.
Once I get the base setting right, roughly how many turns are folks adding for various wind speeds?
Luke.
Check the loos website. They have a conversion chart.
http://68.171.211.157/how-to-use-pt-series-tension-gauges
Quote from: Luke Porter on July 17, 2011, 12:28:01 PM
Quote from: Robert Bernard on July 16, 2011, 09:04:22 PM
Luke, make sure you are starting at the right base value with the loos gauge called out. I had the type A gauge instead of the PT-1 and I was always under tuning my rig. Mother nature helped me ditch the gauge overboard and that's when I realized my mistake. 32 on a PT-1 is not the same as on a type A etc.
This might be the base of the problem. I've got a type A gauge. Does anyone have a PT-1 to type A translation?
Drew: We have the stock Hyde sails, if that helps any. The forestay is set to the recommended length from the tuning guide and I'm not sure how much more we can lengthen it, there's a lot of thread showing. We haven't been burping the jib in the puffs, we'll try that on Wednesday and see what happens.
Once I get the base setting right, roughly how many turns are folks adding for various wind speeds?
Luke.
Hey Luke...what year are the sails. We are currently on Gen IV Hydes. All the mains were somewhat different.
The key thing isn't turns on or off, but how the sail looks...hence my plea to the sail makers for some reference pics.
If you have a Gen II hyde main I believe there's 5.95 " of luff curve on that one. If you pout roughly 6" of smooth curve bend into the mast, you should have a very flat main, not inverted and can adjust what little draft you have with outhaul and c-ham.
Don't be swayed by a number on a Loos. I have two identical ones and they read wildly different. It's just a spring.
Best thing to to is make a draft gauge and get used to what the bend looks like.
Back the headstay turnbuckle all the way off so you know exactly how much thread you have...re-install it and thread on at a minimum 1/2" of threads. Take a measurement.
I think, given the winds you're sailing in, a longer headstay will make considerable difference for you.
Quote from: Luke Porter on July 17, 2011, 12:28:01 PM
This might be the base of the problem. I've got a type A gauge. Does anyone have a PT-1 to type A translation?
Nevermind. I had to grab some bits to re-rig the boat today and found a PT-1 at the same time. There is a serious difference in tension between what I had before and what I have now!
Luke.
Quote from: Drew Harper on July 17, 2011, 01:07:41 PM
Hey Luke...what year are the sails. We are currently on Gen IV Hydes. All the mains were somewhat different.
Back the headstay turnbuckle all the way off so you know exactly how much thread you have...re-install it and thread on at a minimum 1/2" of threads. Take a measurement.
I think, given the winds you're sailing in, a longer headstay will make considerable difference for you.
The boat's brand new (#166) with Hydes straight from the factory so I'm gonna go with 2011.
The stupid thing is that we normally have fairly light winds in the middle of the season, someone up there is messing with my head! The biggest problem we were having was a completely slack headstay. Now, the rig was under-tensioned at the time and we couldn't get the main tight enough to provide any support which wasn't helping but wouldn't a longer headstay make all that more difficult? Or would it basically just tilt the entire rig back leaving the relative tensions the same?
Luke.
Quote from: Luke Porter on July 17, 2011, 06:19:10 PM
The biggest problem we were having was a completely slack headstay.
Luke.
Do you have chocks in front of the mast at the partners? That helps a lot.
Matt CAN 70
Quote from: Matt Rowlinson on July 17, 2011, 07:10:24 PM
Do you have chocks in front of the mast at the partners? That helps a lot.
We have the mast puller system that restricts the forward movement in the partner hole (slot). We're still working out how to use that.
Luke.
Remember as you lengthen the head stay, you may need to lower the bridle. The angle of the boom will be lower and with the bridle in the original position block to block may still leave you with not much leech tension.
Also if you lengthen or shorten the head stay you will need to shorten or lengthen respectively the shrouds to keep the same shroud tension.
All the numbers are just guides. It also depends on your crew weight, and sailing style. A heavier crew will not use as much shroud tension in general as light crew who will be needing to de-power the boat.
If you go out sailing and feel over powered, put on a turn or two. If still overpowered try another turn. Experiment. A lot.
Matt's right on here. Headstay and cap shrouds lengths are directly connected. I know the rig well for the current generation boats...you can lengthen headstay to max and still have cap adjustment.
You have Gen IV sails Luke. 4 3/8" luff curve (I think..the spec changed a bit through testing). You can put considerable bend in the stick without inverting the main.
I'd set 4" prebend and sail with very firm vang, a fair bit of c-ham (opens the leech as well as moving draft forward) and put your strongest trimmer on the jib...not the kite. A bit counter intuitive there but in essence you won't be cleating the jib going upwind. Allows your bow guy to hike like a bi**h too :-))
The pulled on the boat works fine but for ease I'd grab some of these for blocking. Simple and very adjustable. Blocking the mast keeps it a bit straighter lower which shapes up the lower main well and also reduces the headstay sag, most importantly when the main is eased. The sagging headstay is powering up the whole rig. Just be careful not to OVERBLOCK or you can keep the mast too straight....crunchy in the puffs with the kite up :-O
Luke, feel free to give me a call and we can talk about sailing in the breeze. 415-543-7333