With all the recent deals made available from the various sail makers, I am looking for some feedback from viper veterans about the differences( if any) between them. As they have to abide by class rules I realize that these probably won't be immense, but there does seem to be some considerable difference in price between the various lofts. Any suggestions? My wife (crew/boss) told me I need to go faster so I'm looking for an edge:)!
IMO, I have always purchased sails from a quality loft that provides "service". In service I mean, they have a rep/sailor at the big regatta's that will take the time to look at your rig/tune/setup etc., they may also find the time to get on your boat and help you adjust your trim to the new sails. Quick repairs are also important......writing the check stings, but new sails make a big difference.
and for the record, I use Doyle/Boston sails. Very happy with the sails and service.
All of the major US companies have a rep and sailmaker sailing in the fleet (Doyle, Brad Boston, North Ched Procter, Quantum, Scott Nixon). Who does Hyde have? Are they relying on input from their reps and rodar reps or do they actually have a sail designer sailing in the class?
This makes all the difference to me.
The Hyde Sails always seem to be playing catch up to what the US based sail makers are doing.
Drew has a great price on the Hyde's right now which makes them very attractive but at full price they are really not that much cheaper than a set bought from a US loft.
When you call up Hyde for service or to ask questions, any idea who is on the other end of the line?
This is not meant to be a Hyde bashing post as they do have boats at the top of the finishing order all the time I just doubt their ability to be truely innovative.
I have North's for two reasons, I was new to the class last year and I knew that they would be relatively fast out of the box and I also know a lot of guys at my local loft who come sailing with me and offer great service.
I would love to try out some sails from other lofts to compare and see how they all feel.
I don't think anyone has had the opportunity to try this yet.
Hyde just went through a complete sail analysis with Paul Young and Dave Hall on board a Viper at Hayling Island during the Laser worlds. Richard Lovering and Mike Lennon are the lead on the Viper. Both world class sailors and great sailmakers.
There is a newly designed main coming down the pipe. The jib will change very slightly and we are all pretty happy with the new kite.
The Viper sail program was being driven by Brian Bennett and as such, they started looking remarkably like Norths. Very little luff curve and a flat sail mold. Great for light to moderate light, but no good in substantial breeze. Very little range to them. The new main will be QUITE nice...I anticipate having the test version in the next 30 days.
Overall, the Hydes have been outstanding performers. I don't have the results in hand, but I believe Hydes have been at the top of the fleets forever. I know they perform VERY well in the West Coast against all the various sailmakers.
I've sailed all the different sails from each of the current makers. They all have some things that are nice and not so nice. I prefer the Hydes as I believe they have a broader range, are more AP than most of the others. I all along the West in verious regattas...winds from 2 to 30 knots TWS. My old set of Hydes were tunable to all those conditions, though it did take me some time to come to understand just HOW to get them to perform across the broader range. My new Hydes (North Cuts) are much less AP and are essentially useless in winds over 25...my home turf. They are, however, blisteringly fast in winds under 18 knots TWS. The rig must be set much straighter and there must be constant adjustment throughout the race course....top, middle and bottom.
Truth be told, I can't wait for my new set.
Overall quality on the Hydes is on or above par with everyone else. Hyde uses the best fabrics and the best equipment. They've chosen Sabu, Philippines versus North's choice of Sri Lanka. My original set of Hydes (#104) have had the living CRAP beaten out of them. They've survived much more wind/use than any other boat in the Viper fleet on a consistent basis. They are tired but still cranking out the wins.
I've got metric shitloads of repsect for Brad and Tac Boston (Doyle Boston), Ethan Proctor (North), Scott Nixon (Quantum), Chris Winnard (Ullman), Skip Elliot/Harry Pattison (Elliot/Pattison) and Mike Lennon/Richard Lovering (Hyde). They are all pushing the envelope, which is a great thing.
Ullman and Doyle Boston have put in a tremendous effort recently in developing sails for the Viper and both are to be applauded their efforts. Thanks to you Chris and Brad/Tac.
It all comes down to confidence in your boat. If you're confident that your rig is right, your sails are fast, your hull is slippery...well, that's a good chunk of the mental battle...isn't it?
The current Hyde price is a great deal. Paul Young believes strongly that if we keep sailing affordable, more will join in the fun. His theory is working. While most other classes flounder, the Viper is growing. Paul keeps downward pressure on sail prices to keep things affordable. The current Hyde deal represents that belief put in motion. I know of no other 3 crew class where you can buy a full suit of sails for under $3,000.
Whatever you do, keep your sails fresh and you WILL sail faster...this I can promise you 100%
+1
Just ordered a a set of Doyles. If I sailed out west I might have gone ullman.
I have to echo Davies sentiments regarding support. Hydes were hot several years ago but my observation from the last two na's is that most of the top teams are going domestic.
Momma tired of band camp Drake?
Its great to hear that Hyde do have a good group of guys on the design team.
Maybe this should be marketed a little more than just a great price!
Quote from: Matt Sole on October 05, 2010, 03:36:49 PM
Its great to hear that Hyde do have a good group of guys on the design team.
Maybe this should be marketed a little more than just a great price!
Good Call Matt. I'll invite Mike Lennon onto the Viper forum. He's a busy guy but I think he'd enjoy it.
NA's from 2009 were Doyle, North, Hyde, North, Hyde...in that order (I think)
NA's from 2010 were Doyle, Hyde, Hyde, Hyde, Hyde...in that order (I think)
Seems like the Hydes are pretty up there in the hunt.
Drew. I appreciate your input on the Hyde development, however, I gotta wonder why I would buy the new set of Hydes now if the new and improved lot will be available right around the corner? (besides the price)
2010'n a results
1st place doyle
2nd place doyle
3rd place doyle
4th place Hyde but just converted to Doyle
5th place north (class president)
On the west coast for the last two major regattas;
Long beach race week was dominated by a boat flying doilies
Isaf was dominated in by a boat flying ullman.
FYI,
ISAF first place cat 3 sailor Hyde
ISAF second place cat 3 sailor North
for what it's worth...
note - I think I got my catagories wrong. I meant non-pro's...
Quote from: Jeff Jones on October 06, 2010, 01:38:55 AM
2010'n a results
1st place doyle
2nd place doyle
3rd place doyle
4th place Hyde but just converted to Doyle
5th place north (class president)
On the west coast for the last two major regattas;
Long beach race week was dominated by a boat flying doilies
Isaf was dominated in by a boat flying ullman.
Thanks Jeff...I thought you were flying Hydes at the NA's...my bad.
Greg...ISAF was #1 Ullman #2 was Hyde
Quote from: Drake Borer on October 05, 2010, 11:02:42 PM
Drew. I appreciate your input on the Hyde development, however, I gotta wonder why I would buy the new set of Hydes now if the new and improved lot will be available right around the corner? (besides the price)
Because you WILL be buying the new/improved version. That's what's being produced by the loft.
In the sailmaking business, the new/improved lot is ALWAYS just around the corner. Hell, it seems it's that way with just about everything, doesn't it? Nice thing about the Viper...differences in sails are in reality, miniscule. Boat preparation, rig tune, crew work...it ALL goes out the window if you miss the shift at the top of the course or the current running up the right side.
I was using Hydes at the na's this year. I finished 4 th, and just ordered some doyles.
I'm big on personal service (as you well know by now) . I appreciate having brad at all of our major regattas, sails manufactured here in the states etc. When I email them I typically get a reply on the same day, when I call someone answers the phone. It's good to have options.
Maybe deflating the sailmakers a bit but I would put money on any of those winners winning with pretty much any sail combo.
There appear to be no wicked fast sails, just wicked fast sailors.
I already wrote why I buy Norths.
they can only be "wicked fast" in New England.....that's the only place that term has meaning!!
Just kidding Matt!
I'm with Matt. I'll bet the boys on the top boats would beat me silly regardless of the sailmakers they used. Let's not get too bogged down with who won what races with who's sails. I started the thread because I was thinking about getting new sails and wanted to figure out what the hell the difference was between the varioius options. After all the above I'm not sure I know anymore except that there are multiple options. Ah well guess it's back to band camp with my monkey! (inside joke, but it comes down to I aint so wicked fast!)
Speaking of New England and while we are all pimping our favorite sailmakers, don't forget the guys at Evolution.
The Evolution loft in Mystic, CT (previously UK-Halsey) has done a really nice job developing designs (John Fries) and with service. Neal (some call him Steve) O?Connell will find a way to sail with you and help you out. They?ve taken a little different route with arguably better materials with a longer competitive life ? we won the New England?s (Marblehead NOOD) this year with one year old sails and had some respectable other events - third at Charleston this spring, and sixth at NAs last year in Stamford. No Cat 3s, former Olympians, or sailmakers on our boat, just some average guys still learning the boat.
They're worth a look. I think the sails have great range and are straight forward to tune. Steve ? I?ll tell you where to send the check.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on October 06, 2010, 01:38:55 AM
Long beach race week was dominated by a boat flying doilies
Isaf was dominated in by a boat flying ullman.
'Long beach race week was dominated by a boat flying doilies'...the third boat was on a VERY old set of Hydes (#104) that have seen over 70 days in winds in excess of 20 TWS.
'Isaf was dominated in by a boat flying ullman.' 2nd boat was a new set of hydes. Results were Ullman, Hyde, Hyde, North Hyde. Third place boat was on 3 year old Hydes (he just ordered new hydes though)
I get my ass handed to me all the time by a guy on a heavy boat with an old set of Hydes. He goes the right way, is consistent and well, he's got the Emo Fitipaldi do-rag and I just can't pull off that look...I end up looking like a Hell's Angel ;-D
Fast guys are just fast...plain and simple.
Drake,
The Actual differences you are looking for between sails is dacron vs polyester reinforced laminates, cross cut vs true radial vs sort of radial vs string. Spin cloths vary too from coated/impregnated to uncoated and varying qualities of cloth.
Traditionally a cross cut sail is easily tunable across a very broad range of conditions and if you're off a little it still works well whereas a radial cut sail requires more precise tune. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong but take this for what its worth; I'm not trying to sell you anything.
I picked the sails I use after seeing them in action at a few regattas. The factors that drove me were the simplicity and durability of the crosscut main and jib, the material selection, and the quality put into the construction. Support from the design and sales team and other boats using them as well as the fact that I can go to the loft because its in my local region were a big influence.
I certainly weighed my options based on price and in the end the us lofts were all fairly competitive with each other.
Hope this helps some Drake but maybe the sailmakers will pipe in or you may have to ask them individually; how their sails are built, what materials they use, whats the country of origin, why they feel these are the best options and then determine whats fluff and whats worth paying for.
Ben
Actualy I was testing the very 1st iteration of the Ullmans, lost the regatta in the last race to the doylie boys. The well used and abused Hydes were loaned to another boat with some GREAT sailors aboard, they took 3rd..
And yes that Emmo dude is always in the hunt. Put him in a new boat with fresh rags and look out!!!
It really come down to the confidence in your tools / tuning and putting your boat in the correct position... VERY LITTLE difference in the actual sails themselves..
my .02
Quote from: Drew Harper on October 06, 2010, 02:45:57 PM
Quote from: Jeff Jones on October 06, 2010, 01:38:55 AM
Long beach race week was dominated by a boat flying doilies
Isaf was dominated in by a boat flying ullman.
'Long beach race week was dominated by a boat flying doilies'...the second boat was Tim on a VERY old set of Hydes (#104) that have seen over 70 days in winds in excess of 20 TWS.
Isaf was dominated in by a boat flying ullman.
'Isaf was dominated in by a boat flying ullman.' 2nd boat was a new set of hydes. Results were Ullman, Hyde, Hyde, North Hyde. Third place boat was on 3 year old Hydes (he just ordered new hydes though)
I get my ass handed to me all the time by a guy on a heavy boat with an old set of Hydes. He goes the right way, is consistent and well, he's got the Emo Fitipaldi do-rag and I just can't pull off that look...I end up looking like a Hell's Angel ;-D
Fast guys are just fast...plain and simple.
Service & support are #1.... Doyle is not out west... Out here we have Ullman, Pattison, North 1-D which is not Ched but Chris Snow and Vinchinzo... and another LOCAL HOT loft... :)
Find someone that when their lips are moving you don't feel like you need to pop the BS umbrella....
As Class Prez, I've spread my love among the sailmakers over the last three years.
I have owned a suit of Hydes.
A suit of Doyle-Marblehead sails.
A Quantum sail.
North upwind sails.
Dieball chute and recently a North chute.
I've had the honor of sailing a chartered boat with Doyle Boston sails.
I've had great service and help both personally with sail trim and as class prez with help growing the class from all of our class sailmakers. A sailmaker has to be class approved and we are blessed with a very good selection of sailmakers who are supporting our small but rapidly growing class.
I cant believe that any of them are making much money from the Viper. I guess we must be fun, if marginally profitable customers!
Lets give all our sailmakers a big hand of applause.
<HUGE> Applause.
The sailmakers bust their butts to get it right and suck it up when they don't.
Next time you see one....buy him/her a beer :-D