Hi Guys
a few of you asked me many questions about how we sail the GBR 123.
it would have been hard to understand me at 2am in the sandbar!!!
so thought I would start this thread
firstly thank you to everyone for the kind words, I have had heaps
of questions from aussies about wtf is a viper...
the biggest difference from last year, is that we have a full size kite!
I think the Hyde kite has a poor shape and you need to have a North,
Dolye, Ullman, Quantum etc
I think the new upwind Hydes that Tony Chapman had in Sarnia were fast.
Brad goes alright too ;)
but right now Dolye and North has the edge!
I think we (Ian & Glyn not me) hike the hardest over the whole race.
this is the biggest factor.
1st day, we were just smooth as we were the ONLY boat to train the day before.
i think we also sailed a bit higher downwind to really crank her up then were
able to move the apparent forward to get lower!
this is hard with the North kite as it really likes depth!
this high mode we will call the 'danger zone'
the viper has a small rudder and wipes out easy, so have vang/kicker in hand!
thats all I can think of now, but any questions please ask
Hi Dave,
I also have North sails and love them. We had no issues down wind, I felt we were as fast as you guys were. Up wind we were not pointing and did not have speed in the breeze on Thursday. My rig tension was at 32 on the loose gage which I think was too low in the 20 to 25 KTS on Thursday. How was your rig set up with the uppers, lowers and blocks and were you playing the main as well as the jib in the puffs? On Saturday in the moderate stuff we had great speed and point and tied with you for the day.
Thanks,
Viper 121
Joe
Looking at photos from Miami, it's clear that the boys on 123 do indeed hike harder than everyone else. http://www.imagesbymarco.com/f841275570
Though Chappy weighs about 98 pounds soaking wet, so he's often excused from hiking apparently. ;-P
They also have the most annoying habits of consistently starting well and consistently putting the boat in the correct part of the racecourse.
What crew weight are you guys sailing at? (kilos or pounds, any measure other than stones please!)
we AVG about 90kg each, could be wrong.
so about the same as an etchells
but i think we ideal would be 80kg each.
we are too heavy in under 8 knots, I always try and keep us
in breeze downwind (even if i'm out of phase)
If you have good rig setup and hike you can get away with being light!
in the windy day and every day, I do my own mainsheet, and Ian(if he remembers)
will play the jib but not that much.
we went off the north guide and I wasn't happy with our rig.
everything takes time.
we don't have chocks... they will be in for next regatta.
Ian is our rig man, i'll get him to give some feedback
i'm not a fan of sag when windy...
but the Lastcall boys seem to be making it work but I think
they lacked height!
off the top of my head
headstay 26
caps 35
i think.... :S
maybe ched will be at the next regatta... to help us with the rig
Nice work with the write up... It really helps everyone out when the top boats talk about their setups.
See you in Charleston!!!
Brad Boston
Quote from: David Chapman on March 19, 2012, 11:41:53 PM
we AVG about 90kg each, could be wrong.
so about the same as an etchells
but i think we ideal would be 80kg each.
So in American, 90kg avg => 595 pounds, which seems too heavy for you three.
80 kg avg => 528 pounds.
Maybe 90kg is the median average?
95
90
55.
Also 530lbs.
Last call definitely sailed low, but they had a heavy crew so low even in the breeze seemed to make them fast uphill. Even with my older sails I could out point them off the line but their vmg uphill was good. I wonder if thats why they always seemed to sail away from the fleet for clear air???
Ched Proctor reminded me of getting good headstay tension in the breeze.
David,
If you ask a west ausssie sailor you'll find a few know WTF a Viper 640 is. We just need to get the message to the east coast.
Great that you're sharing your knowledge with the class. One more thing that makes the viper a great class.
Couple of questions...as we are looking at attending the NA Viper champs.
From the pictures, you used Hyde sails for main and jib? We are currently using them... How did you find them?
What did the first three boats use for sails? (upwind and down)
http://www.onedesign.com/One%20Design%20NA/tabid/23032/Default.aspx?news_id=3156
Great report from the west coast north guys who sailed the Rondar factory boat at last weeks San Diego nood.
Some really great tips in here about trimming spreaders down to make up for the wide variance mast geometry.
That article talks about shortened spreaders and revised spreader angles ... any official class comment on that? What are the current specs and tolerances? Should the rest of us be cutting down our spreaders and adjusting the angles to match new factory boats? What's going on?
Yeah, I'm with Jay on this one. The article and data provided is really good. Howver trimming down spreaders on a brand new boat is kinda questionable "4.5 Spreaders- Spreaders, as supplied by class approved builder".
Be curious to see if the author of the article will measure adn provide the rake measurement:
4.5 Spreaders- Spreaders, as supplied by a class approved builder, after assembly on the mast must be rigidly attached. The length and sweep of the spreaders on carbon masts shall be measured by attaching a line between the upper shrouds at the bearing point with the spreaders. The distance between this line and the aft most point of the track on the mast, measured perpendicular to the mast shall be no less than 280mm. The length and sweep of the spreaders may not be adjusted in any way once a regatta has commenced.
Jon,
we used Hydes on day 1 as we saw 16kts to about 24kts.
they are 2008 sails I think.
we used our new North sails for the rest of the regatta.
they are not the current design though.
we used the North kite every day, this kite got us out of trouble a few times.
personally I think the new Hyde upwind sails are good, then you need a Doyle or North Kite.
top 3 was,
Hyde/North
North
Ullman
our rig setup was off the old North guide
our North sails were bought in the UK, our sails have no blue strands/yarns in them
like the North american ones... I have no idea why and it makes no difference.
Quote from: Jay Harrell on March 25, 2012, 02:07:05 PM
That article talks about cutting down spreaders and revised spreader angles ... any official class comment on that? What are the current specs and tolerances? Should the rest of us be cutting down our spreaders and adjusting the angles to match new factory boats? What's going on?
Actually, I would have thought that cutting spreaders would be prohibited under "Fundamental Rule" 1.6 without a formal rules modification, not just a tech committee ruling.
Seriously???
Garth adjusted the spreader length from max length (2 holes showing) to minimum length (0 holes showing). No hacksaws involved, just use the cotter pin. Anyone can do this.
His spreader angle is max aft. So this combination has a sweep which is well within the clearly defined rule minimum.
FWIW.
I have my spreader length in the mid position. My sweep measurement is about 310mm by my recollection (which is a bit fuzzy). I will measure at CRW and post.
Quote from: David Chapman on March 25, 2012, 08:21:34 PM
our North sails were bought in the UK, our sails have no blue strands/yarns in them
like the North american ones... I have no idea why and it makes no difference.
The blue strands are Cysteema (a Roche/Genetech product). The advantage of cysteema is that in addition to extremely low stretch characteristics it does not shrink at all, so it prevents the Mylar shrinking in prolific sunlight. The downside is that it is excruciatingly expensive.
Justin, this might very well be an issue of language. Were the spreders cut, were the spreader tips adjusted, etc. If spreaders were cut, that is the question, if spreader tips were adjusted, then no big deal.
C
Drew, who was on the boat, said that the spreader tips were simply adjusted using the builder supplied clevis pins at the spreader tips that are supplied with multiple holes for adjustment. Nothing was cut other than some electrical tape. Garth's details show the resultant spreader sweep at 330 mm. Our class min in the rules is 280 mm.
Quote from: Dave Nickerson on March 26, 2012, 08:08:28 AM
Drew, who was on the boat, said that the spreader tips were simply adjusted using the builder supplied clevis pins at the spreader tips that are supplied with multiple holes for adjustment. Nothing was cut other than some electrical tape. Garth's details show the resultant spreader sweep at 330 mm. Our class min in the rules is 280 mm.
Thanks Dave! Sorry my original mis-read of the article.
I still would like to know more about the "new factory spreader angle". How is it different from before?
Researching North's spreader angle statements with Rondar. Will reply when I have some facts.
Thanks Dave. All this with American English, boy, imagine if the Brits, Aussies, and Islanders got into this.
C
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on March 26, 2012, 07:05:52 AM
Justin, this might very well be an issue of language. Were the spreders cut, were the spreader tips adjusted, etc. If spreaders were cut, that is the question, if spreader tips were adjusted, then no big deal.
C
Yup. the language in the article was "shortened" rather than "cut". A better choice of word would have been "adjusted", but before we rag on Garth too much, I think we should celebrate and appreciate detailed sharing of information like that.
Garth pulled out the cotter pin and went to minimum length from the max length. As one of the "East Coast" guys who has been playing around with tune I dont agree 100% with how Garth sets up his boat but I applaud 110% the sharing of information by the top sailors .
Eg, Garth remarks on softer rig tension. Garth has a heritage of 5-0-5 and performance dinghy sailing. I have been going faster and faster in big breeze by really whaling on my uppers more than previously. I now have a bigger variance between my light, medium and big breeze on my uppers and less of a variance on my lowers than I used to have.....and it seems to be working. In big breeze my headstay stays taunt upwind and the mast in column downwind. If it gos light, I am quite aggresive about easing the uppers to develop sag in the headstay and power up the jib.
For all participants at Charleston Race Week I am preparing a laminated sheet which will include bullet points from all the top sailors of tune and go fast tips for the Viper.
If you want one then come to CRW.......or the NAs in Marblehead.
Just to clarify, for the paranoid amongst you, there is no new sweep position on the spreaders. Garth pulled the spreaders inwards, from two holes showing to no holes showing, and no spreaders were physically cut or harmed during this incident.
Just for the record, the precise sweep of the spreaders and their length is not that important on a Viper, what matters is the relationship between spreader sweep, length and rig tension. For example, if you shortened your spreaders (as Garth did), you will have less prebend for the same rig tension. You would acheive identical prebend by either keeping the same spreader length and rig tension, but sweeping them forwards a little, or by keeping the same length and sweep but reducing rig tension. There are three ways of getting the same setting, and which way to go is an owner choice.
What is pretty evident is that when you look at the results is despite the open sailmaker policy and the slight differences in boats over the years, is how close and open the racing is. In last years EFG series 19 boats were in the top three over the races, all of different vintages, with different makes of sails and crew weights, and in Miami the sane applied, with a two year old boat winning from a 13 year old boat in second with race wins by brand new boats and one year old boats. That is about as One Design as you can get!
Paul.
Garth is an engineer and a damn good one. We went through an 8 hour tuning session (if I have to pull that Loos Gauge ONE more time...lol).
Chris Snow, Garth and I went through an entire range of settings working throughout the anticipated performance curves.
We ended up with the mast slightly straighter (still with the minimum of 3.5" prebend) and firmly blocked (though a varying number of blocks). Garth wanted to change the spreader sweep to some dimensions that Ched had given him. Ched has spent the majority of his time on Justins boat which has carbon rig number one and, I believe, slightly different brackets. I vetoed that saying that we (Rondar) need North to not change the rig from stock angles/drilling as it will then void the warranty. All it took to get the rig where we wanted it was to move the spreader tips in to base (no holes showing). We softened up the rig during the light, built in some mid-mast sag and added in some headstay sag to power the boat up. The boat was very fast with our final tune setup in 8 TWS. We then had a chance to bone the rig in preparation for sailing in puffs to 30. We managed to get the boat depowered quite nicely and it was just a matter of some jib lead changes for wave conditions to allow for some groove nuances. Justin mentions 'whaling on the uppers' and we truly did that. We were damn near two blocked and I spotted the rig with the kite up in huge puffs and she was nicely prebent and completely in column. This allowed us to just concentrate on going fast without worrying one bit about the rig. Kinda huge in big breeze. All of the various tune setups will be published in the new Rondar/North Viper640 tuning guide which is underway. Additionally we are photo-documenting the sails with specific tune setups so that everyone has a visual reference of the intended 'shape.'
I'm very grateful to Garth and Chris for all their help. Good guys and hella fun to sail with.
http://www.onedesign.com/One%20Design%20NA/tabid/23032/Default.aspx?news_id=3156
Quote from: Jeff Jones on March 25, 2012, 01:26:54 PM
http://www.onedesign.com/One%20Design%20NA/tabid/23032/Default.aspx?news_id=3156
Great report from the west coast north guys who sailed the Rondar factory boat at last weeks San Diego nood.
Some really great tips in here about trimming spreaders down to make up for the wide variance mast geometry.
The only variance in mast geometry that I am aware of is between tin and carbon rigs. I have rigged 30+ masts since I started selling Vipers. I have seen very little difference in rigs. We did have some spreaders come undrilled which was just a production issue. We also doubled the thickness on the spreader bracket two years ago but there was no change in geometry. We also had 5 masts that the caps were installed in the wrong position (2.5") high. Rondar replaced all of those and they are now imbedded as 'emergency' masts throughout the West and Texas. (we ended up with them all).
I could have used a better choice of words in that post. I throught the write-up by Garth was really great. I wish i would have spent some time picking his brain when we were in San Diego.
I find that i cant rake my spreaders back on my older masts (both 31 and 58's) as far as all of the new masts i've measured. Might be able to drill another hole but thats an uncomforable option and it would be very close to the front of the spreader edge. I wonder if that is consistant with all the pre-2009 spars? Justin, what is your furthest aft setting?
Mine measured 11.25" (285 MM) from the back of the track. We seem to go pretty well but carry a lot more cap tension to bend the mast. To get into the 4" range we really have to crank them on. That would seem to benifit a flat mainsail or very heavy crew?
The North tuning guide gives a spreader depth of 29cm (5mm more than mine) which was where Garth appeared to be heading.
Ched did a measuring session in Miami when we had out tuning weekend. We were using the measurement from the back of the mast to the string tied between the spreaders. We found massive difference in the 5 or 6 rigs we checked.
My spreaders were at 271, so I have to set the tips max out and I am still 4mm short of class legal. 155 was way over at around 320mm. 178 was around 310mm I believe.
Considering the fittings look to be all drilled out in the same locations, I can only assume the holes on the spreaders are not drilled very accurately.
The spreaders are all drilled on a jig so therefore pretty damn close to consistent (for handmade/drilled goods). I have received two boxes of boats wherein spreaders were not drilled and we tried to stay very close to the stock spreader drilling.
Here's a shot of the spreader brackets. Pretty consistent. I do think the math is problematic. Just a little bit off, say 1mm, adds up to a bunch of degrees. I suck at math so there's folks here that can make sense of this.
more like 1 degree adds up to a bunch of millimeters.
Jeff,
I will measure my sweep again at CRW. Perhaps dave N could take a sample.
I agree with you that we will make our sailmakers lives and our own lives a lot easier if we all sailed with a consistent spreader sweep.
My mast spreaders (one of the very first carbon masts) came with 3 adjustments for spreader angle and 3 adjustments for spreader length. I sail with angle in the aftmost position and spreader length in the mid position.
My recollection is that with the angle in the aftmost position, all three speader lengths comply with the class required sweep measurement. In the forward position I had to have the spreader at max length to comply with class rules.
You can achieve the same sweep (measuring from a line between the two ends of the spreaders to the back of the mast) in two ways. (1) Spreader angle forward and spreader length max long or (2) Spreader angle aft and spreader length shorter.
I love to experiment so I tried both. The amount of rig tension to get the same amount of prebend was not noticeably different so I set up based on the same rig tensions for a couple of weeks in each configuration. Then I went sailing. To my very untutored and amateur eye:
Option 1 - The rig seemed slighty stiffer, side to side, laterally.
Option 2 - The rig seemed slightly stiffer, fore and aft. My headstay seemed a touch tighter in similar wind conditions.
So I went with option #2. There is so much that was not scientific about my experiment (wind, waves etc will vary), and any difference was pretty small, but hey we feel good about it. Just feeling good makes us faster!
I'm sure JB could model this on a computer.
Having consistant mast geometry through the fleet would certainly benifit sailmakers but more-so the 90% of us who dont have the skill-set or know how to mess with the rig and make things work given the cut of their sails we're using. (without drilling new holes in their spreaders to match someone else's settings)
This would seem as simple as drilling the spreaders when they are on the mast, jig in place so they ensure that the spreader tips are in the same place relative to the mast tube. I agree with Drew (assuming i understand him correctly) in that being just a fraction off on the drilling could make a big difference in sweep.
Next time you speak to Ben P or Zimm, ask them to put "check spreader geometry" on their QC list before the boat get's delivered. After spending some time with them down in New Orleans my confidence is high. So to that question... when guys? (or is that for another thread wait, let's ask an aussie).
Quote from: Justin Scott on March 28, 2012, 11:41:19 AM
Jeff,
I will measure my sweep again at CRW. Perhaps dave N could take a sample.
I agree with you that we will make our sailmakers lives and our own lives a lot easier if we all sailed with a consistent spreader sweep.
My mast spreaders (one of the very first carbon masts) came with 3 adjustments for spreader angle and 3 adjustments for spreader length. I sail with angle in the aftmost position and spreader length in the mid position.
My recollection is that with the angle in the aftmost position, all three speader lengths comply with the class required sweep measurement. In the forward position I had to have the spreader at max length to comply with class rules.
You can achieve the same sweep (measuring from a line between the two ends of the spreaders to the back of the mast) in two ways. (1) Spreader angle forward and spreader length max long or (2) Spreader angle aft and spreader length shorter.
I love to experiment so I tried both. The amount of rig tension to get the same amount of prebend was not noticeably different so I set up based on the same rig tensions for a couple of weeks in each configuration. Then I went sailing. To my very untutored and amateur eye:
Option 1 - The rig seemed slighty stiffer, side to side, laterally.
Option 2 - The rig seemed slightly stiffer, fore and aft. My headstay seemed a touch tighter in similar wind conditions.
So I went with option #2. There is so much that was not scientific about my experiment (wind, waves etc will vary), and any difference was pretty small, but hey we feel good about it. Just feeling good makes us faster!
I'm sure JB could model this on a computer.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on March 28, 2012, 01:16:47 PM
Having consistant mast geometry through the fleet would certainly benifit sailmakers but more-so the 90% of us who dont have the skill-set or know how to mess with the rig
or even if some of us have the know how, we just want to sail a boat where you dont have to mess with the spreaders. Simple and Easy is what we all signed up for.
So Yup. I agree.
I'm ALL for fixed spreaders, length and sweep.
Get the TC to work that one up and we'll build it that way. Might even make some nice shiny carbon ones too ;-)
Still have to drill them the same drew
;-)
Quote from: Drew Harper on April 02, 2012, 02:34:59 PM
I'm ALL for fixed spreaders, length and sweep.
Get the TC to work that one up and we'll build it that way. Might even make some nice shiny carbon ones too ;-)
LOL...no drilling required Jeffe. Perfect for me :-)