Viper 640 PHRF

[Doug Stumberger]

Question about Viper vs. M24:

This spring we're racing in the same PHRF class with them. Last night was 15 knots with 1-2' chop, straight W/L course, about 30 minute race time total. We struggled to really hang with the leaders upwind and were generally fine d/w, ending both actual and adjusted in mid-fleet.

Up here we're racing 111 and M24's are 99.  Just trying to figure out whether in those conditions we should have been doing better against them...

It was our first night out, new crew, rig tune was probably 80%, blah blah blah, but wondering...

Thanks
Doug Stumberger 174

[Thomas Leith]

Sounds pretty good to me. Hang in there.

[David Hillmyer]

Rating update from Southwest FL... (West Florida PHRF)

Viper640 = 102
Melges 24 = 93
J70 = 117
VX1 = 111

[Jesse Winterbottom]

Melbourne area is still 96. Rob Bernard and I are going to try and get the same rating as the Vipers in Miami (102 I believe) once we take delivery of our Viper.  We could use the better rating considering the closest boats to our rating is J/24s and a few J/30s.

If it makes you boys feel any better when I had my Melges 24 in Hawaii they rated us 75. I owed a J/33 time.......

[Nick Kofski]

In lake Michigan (area 3 anyhow) we rate 96 and M24 rates 92 I believe.

[John Leyland]

In Vancouver, PHRF-BC has the following:

M24 - 99
Viper 640 - 99 (no OB)
Viper 640 - 108 (with OB)
J 70 - 125

Cheers,
John

[Justin Scott]

John,

That seems unfair.

This may help: http://www.viper640.org/the-viper-640/handicap-information/64-phrf-ratings

The Viper is typically owed about 9 seconds by a Melges 24 which is faster than a Viper in all conditions except a complete drifter. < 3 knots.

[Peter Beardsley]

Justin, you do realize that in WLIS, Vipers GIVE 3 seconds a mile to M24s, right?  Perhaps the most brutal rating in the country.  Even with J/105s (both at 96), Soverel 33s at 90, M24s at 99, and for the record, J/70s are at 117 (which I'm ok with - I think they have trouble sailing to that rating in most conditions).  Not a lot of data though to mount a significant rating challenge and the couple of PHRF events I did this year did very little to give support that our rating should be different (though we didn't have any M24s to play with since there's only 1-2 on WLIS in general and/or that race, or race PHRF).  Best conditions for the Viper rating seem to be less than 8 kts and very shifty since the Viper won't lose as much as a heavier boat tacking to play each shift.  In those conditions.  In sub 5 kts, we were as quick or quicker than a well sailed Soverel 33, which is generally an excellent light air boat.  Don't have any data from 10+ kts

[John Leyland]

John,

That seems unfair.

This may help: http://www.viper640.org/the-viper-640/handicap-information/64-phrf-ratings

The Viper is typically owed about 9 seconds by a Melges 24 which is faster than a Viper in all conditions except a complete drifter. < 3 knots.

Thanks Justin,

I'm not thrilled with it but it's PHRF and for 9 seconds/mile I will definitely be buying an OB now.

Except for Wednesday nights and a few other regattas the Melges 24's race OD here and we'll see what interest we can drum up for the Viper in September as we're having a Demo Day followed by another in Seattle so hopefully we can establish a few more boats in the PNW.

Cheers,
John

[Jason Hyerstay]

I am pretty happy with 102 right now. We have beaten all boats In the fleet in planing weather. There is no longer at Melges 24 on the lake.

[Justin Scott]

I am pretty happy with 102 right now. We have beaten all boats In the fleet in planing weather. There is no longer at Melges 24 on the lake.

Ouch...salt on the wound for John L. I think its pretty safe to say that he would be "pretty happy" with 102.
If PHRF was logical then it wouldn't be PHRF.

My favorite system is the Wednesday night series run by BYC in Marblehead. The winner each Weds picks up a 36 second a mile penalty the following week, declines to an 18 second a mile the following week and so on. It usually means that 3 boats are carrying penalties and anyone who sails reasonably well has a shot at the podium (which is what its all about) and anyone with a gift rating picks up the 36 second again pretty quickly.
My favorite guy on the race course was Ralph Carlton (my ex-accountant, and founder of the Marblehead Sailing Center) who lifted the skill of finishing second to a higher art form. You can always trust an accountant to figure out the numbers! He's 85+ and still at it. Although I noticed that he got a bit sloppy last year and picked up a bullet half way thru the season, scoring a 6 th and 4th the following two Wednesdays and losing the series by two points.

[Steve Conger]

"Vipers GIVE 3 seconds a mile to M24s, right?  Perhaps the most brutal rating in the country" -Beardsley


In Detroit, viper=96. M24=102

Ouch

[Peter Beardsley]

In Detroit, viper=96. M24=102
Ouch

Yep, that's definitely worse.  Plus there are actually some good M24 sailors from the Detroit area...how did that rating happen?!?

[John Leyland]

That's brutal!

[Drew Harper]

Time to take a trip to one of the PHRF rating meetings. Show them this thread and review the finishes for both the Viper and M24 in your area.

If the Viper has been beating the M24, you're screwed. If not, appeal the rating.