Viper 640 PHRF

[Olaf Bleck]

It gets even better...!

Now PHRF NE is only are rating boats that have furniture...!!  WTF.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/594/1155/
Fall Governor's Meeting
November 15, 2006

A discussion of lifelines ended with a possible recommendation that the 2007 Championships be at the ORC Category 5 level, where lifelines are recommended but not required.

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http://www.phrfne.org/page/594/6154/
Fall 2010 Governor's Meeting
November 11, 2010

The use of "Unofficial" certificates was discussed. This was brought about by the New Bedford Yacht Club accepting a Viper 640 into the Buzzard's Bay Regatta (that was me -Olaf). Historically, the unofficial designation was brought about by the lack of lifelines, among other things. Now since many races use ORC Cat 5 Equipment Regulations, that do not require life lines, this old definition needs some rework. A new proposal will be brought to the Spring meeting. It will likely apply the "Unofficial" designation to those boats with no cruising accomodations. However, in the end, it is up to the race organizer to determine what boat entries are accepted in a race.

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http://www.phrfne.org/page/594/6713/
Spring 2011 Governor's Meeting
March 31, 2011

Previously the "Unofficial" handicap notation was given to all boats without lifelines. Now that many races are conducted under Offshore Equipment Regulation 5, which does not require lifelines, we will use a new definition. Now the unofficial designation will be given to handicaps for one design boats that do not have more than a minimal amount of furniture and auxiliary power.

[Thomas Leith]

> Let's start with PHRF-NE  dropping the "U".

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Because of bylaw 8.1 it seems to me that if you get your wish PHRF-NE will simply decline altogether to issue a rating for the Viper, M-24, J-22, etc., even for "informal" racing. That would be simplest for them and won't hurt them in the least.

Look, unless they change their bylaws, Vipers (M-24s, SR Max & so on) will NEVER be in the PHRF-NE class. (You do realize that PHRF regions are classes according to the RRS, don't you?)

> I'm hoping next year we can put together a sportboat fleet.

Great! Run your own under Portsmouth. Use the UK version if you think it is better than the US version. Or use one of the VPP measurement rules. It isn't that hard. Decide which boats you'll permit into your class. You can probably get LC (or any local club) to have a start for your class in a racing division right along with their normal racing program; they'll probably be happy to record the finish times for you, you'll just do your own scoring and buy your own awards (if you want them). But don't expect them to provide crash boats for you -- your safety will be your problem.

Then you can be the target of skippers bitching about whatever rating system you choose and you'll start writing forum posts like this one.

[Olaf Bleck]

> Let's start with PHRF-NE  dropping the "U".

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Because of bylaw 8.1 it seems to me that if you get your wish PHRF-NE will simply decline altogether to issue a rating for the Viper, M-24, J-22, etc., even for "informal" racing. That would be simplest for them and won't hurt them in the least.

Look, unless they change their bylaws, Vipers (M-24s, SR Max & so on) will NEVER be in the PHRF-NE class. (You do realize that PHRF regions are classes according to the RRS, don't you?)

Well, you bring up the full gamut of issues here, boiling right down to what the point of PHRF and USS is. It's to PROMOTE SAILING.

When you have an organization going rogue, like these guys, it discourages sailing.  In fact, that's a key reason USS has an appeals process over the local outfits, which while they get to operate independently, are still bound to and sanctioned by USS PHRF.

I love buoy racing with the Viper class.  However, I also love PHRF racing, be it on my boat or others (like the Hendo, formerly Juan Mauri's boat, which doesn't have furniture as it turns out... sh-t, what are we going to do now...??!). 

Why do I love it?  It's different.  It's distance racing.  It's a bit of a Solomon vs. Goliath thing.  It's an opportunity to sail the boat really hot for long distances.  The parties are good.  I have a lot of PHRF friends.

I do -hate- hypocrisy though:

- PHRF NE is the only PHRF outfit that won't rate small sportboats
- Fortunately they have no authority over any regattas except the one they run directly (PHRF NE Championships)
- Their "policy" of who they'll rate and won't is completely informal and violates their own charter and bylaws
- They're making up sh-t as they go along to suit themselves.

It's one thing to have "your own little club", but that's not what PHRF is about.

My 2 cents.


Tom, you're a PHRF handicapper on Lake Carlyle or such?

[Thomas Leith]

> It's one thing to have "your own little club", but that's not what PHRF is about.

Really? I hate whiners. They make sailboat racing a total drag and organizing sailboat racing a much bigger PITA than it needs to be.

Every PHRF region *is* its own self-governing racing class. It can be little or big depending on where it is. The purposes of each class might be different. The way each class pursues its purposes might be different. Instead of whining, you can "promote sailing" by administering a class that is more fun for people who own small boats. As a side effect, sailing among big boat owners will be better promoted because they won't have to listen to your whining and getting beaten by boats they don't think they should be competing against in the first place.

> I do -hate- hypocrisy though

I also hate people using words they don't know the meanings of. Alanis Morissette hasn't got this excuse, but maybe you're not a native speaker and I should cut you some slack. Nothing on your list of "offenses" is hypocrisy and I don't see anything they're doing which might be described as "rogue". The don't have to rate boats they don't want in their class. Of course they don't have authority over regattas they don't organize. You yourself have demonstrated that their policy of who they'll rate and won't is reviewed at board meetings of the class association, minutes taken and disseminated quite publicly, and is guided very well by their charter and bylaws, especially bylaw 8.1.

I am a member of the Carlyle Yacht Club's Regatta Committee, which maintains PHRF ratings for whosoever requests one at Carlyle Lake (in southwestern Illinois) subject, of course, to our policy about which boats we will and won't rate. We report our ratings to USPHRF, pay the fees and the rest. I have suggested we not rate M-24s and Vipers, but the M-24 & Viper owners are well-enough satisfied with PHRF and there is no appetite for learning the details of another rating system at the present time. So long as regatta organizers separate sport boats from cruiser/racers everyone is happy enough. Except for the owners who think PHRF is a golf handicapping system or wish it was, or want an unfair advantage over others, or want to be the biggest fish in the smallest pond, or any number of other things, but those are other rants.

[Olaf Bleck]

With all due respect, Tom, I think that's a bunch of BS, though you're entitled to your opinion.

What does this have to do with "whining"? I'm documenting what "is the fact".

Moreover, the premise that we should go out and start our on new PHRF-like thing when PHRF so well established in this region is also completely ludicrous.  Fortunately, most of the regattas I want to sail my Viper in are accommodating and are indeed interested in having as many boats and as much fun as possible, much to PHRF-NE's chagrin apparently.  I just want to sail without this undertone of being "unofficial" in this region, especially when it's condoned _everywhere else_.

By the way I am a native born American.  Maybe it's not clear what the hypocrisy here is:

It is when you publish a set of bylaws and agree to adhere to some overseeing sanctioning body's charter, and then in the back room adjust and apply your own personal agenda to administering things.

hy?poc?ri?sy
noun \hi-ˈp?-krə-sē also hī-\
1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion
2: an act or instance of hypocrisy

I don't know if one can be  "boat bigot", though maybe that's another way to put it. But if one is, at least say so.

I suppose PHRF-NE could change their bylaws to explain exactly what they'll exclude, but that assuredly won't happen because then there WILL be a sh-t storm of protest since it will be clear to everyone (Viper owners and otherwise) that PHRF-NE is some sort of exclusive thing.  You'd be surprised how many people are glad to see me out there sometimes.

There is no doubt that PHRF breaks down based on conditions on any given day.  That's part of it.  I agree it is "whining" when someone is consistently going on about how their rating is a few points from fair, as opposed to just going out and sailing faster.  PHRF here is a fun activity though, and most boat owners get that.  However, PHRF NE should keep their noses out of it and just make sure the ratings are consistent.

[Jay Harrell]

Okay guys, enough.  This discussion heading over the edge, and we really try to keep that sort of stuff out of our forum.  So please, PLEASE, agree to disagree and move on. 

[Thomas Leith]

> I just want to sail without this undertone of being "unofficial" in this region

It isn't an undertone -- it is up front and explicit, evidently by design. And see below.

> I suppose PHRF-NE could change their bylaws to explain exactly what they'll exclude

They have already said what they will IN-clude (Bylaw 2.1, arguably 2.2, and 8.1.1) and evidently don't find it necessary to describe the complementary set. A Viper ain't a cruiser or a racer/cruiser. Period. That's the fact driving the decisions there.

It seems they're considering amending their bylaws -- if you want to be under the PHRF-NE umbrella now's the time. I think you're on the right track to try to organize a sportboat fleet, get yourself named Governor and a friend of yours named Handicapper, and then you can be in the room when the bylaws are updated and the ratings are generated. Of course, it looks to me like they define "fleet" geographically, not by boat-type. It will help if you quit calling them names and impugning their motivations in a public forum. I'd approach one or more of the board members and ask them whether they'd be open to something along these lines, (sportboats per se, non-geographic fleet) what the objections are going to be and so-forth. I'd do that this weekend. Lots of stuff in their bylaws will have to be updated to accommodate you. If this or that regatta organizer wants to keep you out of a division in a big regional regatta, they can have a SA/D limit or some such in their NOR and make you bring enough boats for a sportboat-only division. It can be made to "work" within limits and PHRF-NE can drop the word you object to. Best of luck.

[Olaf Bleck]

The point is this:

Here you have the predominant racing organization in this area _excluding_ certain boats that are certainly very similar to others which they don't exclude (e.g. RP 30, Hendo, J80, Melges 24/32, etc), for sketchy, evolving reasons.  Furthermore, all the other nearly identical organizations in the US who subscribe to the same overall charter DO NOT exclude these boats.  That's not good for the sport in this region and begs to question the motivations of the decision makers.

So where to you draw the line then?  Use the same line as everyone else.

[Jason Hyerstay]

I'm reviving this thread. I would love to hear any reports of updates to the Viper rating in any regions. I am going to try to appeal our 102 rating on Lake Champlain to try to get 108 or 111 for this light wind lake. Melges 24 is 99 here.

Personally, I am sick of giving time to a pair of J/92 boats at 105 who don't need it.

Thanks,

jason

[Thomas Leith]

If the Melges 24 is at 99, your 108 - 111 range is about right.

Are you racing in the same division with the J-92??

[Dave Dougall]

Jason.  I race at 111 on Lake George.  With most racing on we'd night with winds at 8 or less wind speed and not square race courses, this rating is fair.  This year I crossed the finish line 1st in 12 of 16 races, and only won 4 of them on ct.  Race against 2 j80s, j24s and j22s.  Good luck

[Jason Hyerstay]

If the Melges 24 is at 99, your 108 - 111 range is about right.

Are you racing in the same division with the J-92??

Our Spin B class consists of the lighter keelboats with little or no furniture, including many J/29s, a couple of J/92 boats, one J/92s, a J/80, a Melges 20 when they feel like coming out, and us. We don't have enough sportboats for our own class yet. Oh, and toughest of all, Etchells on weekend races where they don't need their 126 rating to win boat for boat many times.

jason

[David Furna]

No doubt, I get Henry Frazier's Etchell's at a 120 phrf in NC. No fun in less than 10kts

[Steve Conger]

PHRF 96 in Detroit. Melges 24 rate 99. Light to moderate winds with short steep chop. Ouch

[Jason Hyerstay]

Ouch! Since so much of PHRF is each region seeing what other regions do, I think it would be good for the boat and the class if each of us tries to make an appeal over the winter this year. It would be great to have a common reference that we could compare the Viper too, and maybe not another sportboat. For me it might be the J/29 or the J/80.

I've been thru two appeals before, getting the C&C 99 from 102 to 105 and then 108.

I may even include in my appeal that the PHRF group take a look at all the sportboat ratings. The Melges 20 was getting killed at 111, and basically stopped racing. We will have one or two J/70s next year, and I hope they get a fair rating too. Perhaps on Sailing Anarchy, sportboat folks could come up with a fair speed ranking of the various North American sporboats so we all have a chance of getting rated fairly.

Good luck!

jason