I don't want to turn this into a forum but....I am wanting a used boat and have lots of questions..
So a "heavy" early Rondar boat or a Bennett boat that has had all the upgrade done.. what are the plus and minus.
If I show up with either one on the race course and everything else is relativly equal..sails, sailing skills, etc, will I get eaten alive by the newer boats? Just trying to clarify my options and decide how much money I want to spend (meaning how long I want to be in the dog house!)
Appreciate the help!
Garrett,
All the boats are pretty much equal.
Here in AZ I won our series two years ago with my #46.
Last year #72 won. This year?
Back East early boats and new boats are always mixed in the top five...
Greg
USA 46
heroin
+1 My experience on the race course is that all vintages of Vipers (if well cared for and with good sails) go the same speed. The difference is the team sailing the boat.
Garrett,
Here's the Generations
Mark 1 - Commonly reffered to as Bennett Boats. Up to #69? (I want that one =p) I don't know if they ever produced Hulls 1-9.
Mark 2 - Rondar built on Bennett Tooling. Hulls #70-101. I believe the first 6 or 7 were overbuilt/heavy. Heard all sorts of reasons why. Bottom line comes to the team. #71 (a heavy) has won LOTS of races at the hands of Tony Chapman in AZ in all sorts of breeze, particularly in the light stuff (Tony's forte). #71 won the SA ISAF 2009.
Mark 3 - Rondar built on all new tooling. #102 through current (I think we are at #166)
It's pretty clear that in the Viper class, nearly anyone can win a race if you go the setup the rig/boat right, go the right way, turn at the right time, pick the correct gate, and don't f'up the sail handling.
Bottom line on buying a boat is how much time do you want to translate from on-water (sailing/racing) to in the shop (restoration/repair).
It was a handful of the Mark IIs that were more weight.
I beleive that the first mark II, #70, is as light as any. It is certainly annoyingly fast at times.
Quote from: Justin Scott on January 29, 2011, 12:15:43 PM
It was a handful of the Mark IIs that were more weight.
I beleive that the first mark II, #70, is as light as any. It is certainly annoyingly fast at times.
mnn hm. We should weigh Grendel sometime--but light air has never been our problem.
Quote from: Matt Rowlinson on January 31, 2011, 10:41:03 AM
mnn hm. We should weigh Grendel sometime--but light air has never been our problem.
It'd be great to get some scales at some of the larger events this year, just to see. I'm real curious. Either a load cell on a hoist, or truck scales (drive trailer with boat on, weigh, remove boat, weigh again).
By the way, #24 is sold. :-)
She's gonna be upgraded to modern standards out there and generally available for charter.
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on February 01, 2011, 12:13:54 AM
Quote from: Matt Rowlinson on January 31, 2011, 10:41:03 AM
mnn hm. We should weigh Grendel sometime--but light air has never been our problem.
It'd be great to get some scales at some of the larger events this year, just to see. I'm real curious. Either a load cell on a hoist, or truck scales (drive trailer with boat on, weigh, remove boat, weigh again).
I have a very Nice hanging load cell scale vie used to check a few boats. Id be happy to bring it to mgrw or crw.
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on February 01, 2011, 12:13:54 AM
Either a load cell on a hoist, or truck scales (drive trailer with boat on, weigh, remove boat, weigh again).
It's my understanding that the drive-on truck scales aren't really sensitive enough for small-boat weighing purposes. To get +/- a pound or two, you need that load cell.
Quote from: Jay Harrell on February 01, 2011, 07:44:30 AM
It's my understanding that the drive-on truck scales aren't really sensitive enough for small-boat weighing purposes. To get +/- a pound or two, you need that load cell.
Heh, I'd be interested in +- 20 at this point! I put #56 on the hoist with a 600# full scale spring rotary balance and it wound up to about 850+....
Jeff, yeah, bring that puppy! It'd be great to get some data. I'll bet you could even charge admission, like say a six-pack or some rum.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on February 01, 2011, 12:18:39 AM
I have a very Nice hanging load cell scale vie used to check a few boats. Id be happy to bring it to mgrw or crw.
Bring it! Sounds like a great Ash Wednesday project...
WOW...congrats Olaf !!
Anything I can do to help, let me know.
There's two great spots that repair boats in the area. Berkeley Marine Center, Cree Partridge who also builds lots of one-offs for Antrim and others.
Elkhorn Composites in Santa Cruz area. They built the first 3 U24's, do all the U20 fixes and are great guys.
Be great to have you in the area. We have a GREAT WCC this year.
OLaf did the bulb conversion on #56 at Miami last year. One all nighter with beer and some drunken Viper sailors. He is quite capable.
Quote from: Jay Harrell on February 01, 2011, 08:22:55 AM
Quote from: Jeff Jones on February 01, 2011, 12:18:39 AM
I have a very Nice hanging load cell scale vie used to check a few boats. Id be happy to bring it to mgrw or crw.
Bring it! Sounds like a great Ash Wednesday project...
Bet lots of class members would buy you & your crew a round for use of this. Unfortunately, most at CRW ramp launch--no crane at the resort. Maybe the NA's in Sarnia?
Sure Matt, i'll bring it to Sarnia - or any other major regatta's i can get to this year.
Anyone is welcome to use it.
I checked 129 (my new Rondar) and 31 (old Bennett i just brought back from Arizona to refurbish). The hulls checked in less than 10lbs apart, the bennett still had a little H20 in it while the Rondar was bone dry. Keels were within 2lbs.
When i did the math in my head - added mast, boom, rudder, gnav etc - both should be very close to class min.
Quote from: Paul Zimmerman on February 01, 2011, 11:20:34 AM
OLaf did the bulb conversion on #56 at Miami last year. One all nighter with beer and some drunken Viper sailors. He is quite capable.
A lot of people question my technical and epoxy capabilities, but that night I played a contributory role , holding the beer and passing sandpaper.
You guys should try to borrow some race car scales. http://www.intercomp-racing.com/ We used them to corner weight our cars, back when I raced, and we believed them to be accurate to the pound. I have a buddy who still has his and could make them available to the Texas fleet the next time you guys are in Houston. It does seem that we are out of town at a J24 regatta every time you guys come to Houston, however.
Barry
Baileyrace at gmail
Nice to know what your boat weighs but you might want consider keeping the individual results for owners eyes only.
We had a load cell hooked up to the hoist at out club a few years ago and a bunch of boats took advantage of it - unfortunately caused all kinds of accusations about cheater ratings etc. Folks seemed a lot more interested in what other peoples boats weighed.
Heard at least one owner later saying he wished he had never weighed the damn thing.
Just sayin...
Chris, you bring up a good point.
Curious, by your post I assume there were boats that came in less than the class min?
I think the information is important and everybody needs to know. There may come a time at a N.A. that all the boats are measured... Especialy if we ever have the luxury of multiple builders or build locations.
There may also be a need to have a class approved method of adding corrector weights if boats are light..
I don't think it necessarily needs to be public knowledge what each boat weighs, but it's well known that these boats were built with different methods, materials, designs, etc and some are definitely heavy. So it would be good just to know where you sit in comparison. All else being equal, if a boat's 100# heavy, that's just not fair.
It is supposed to be OD after all.
Moreover, if one has a light boat, it's technically the responsibility of the skipper to bring some weight even if there isn't a weigh in. Cheaters never prosper, but you can't not cheat if you don't know you are.
Sorry guys, should have been more clear I was not talking about Vipers getting weighed - just saying things can get very contentious in a hurry - expect talk of corrector weights to follow...
I have yet to see a boat that was underweight.
Quote from: Jeff Jones on February 01, 2011, 12:18:39 AM
Quote from: Olaf Bleck on February 01, 2011, 12:13:54 AM
Quote from: Matt Rowlinson on January 31, 2011, 10:41:03 AM
mnn hm. We should weigh Grendel sometime--but light air has never been our problem.
It'd be great to get some scales at some of the larger events this year, just to see. I'm real curious. Either a load cell on a hoist, or truck scales (drive trailer with boat on, weigh, remove boat, weigh again).
I have a very Nice hanging load cell scale vie used to check a few boats. Id be happy to bring it to mgrw or crw.
jeff lets weigh the boats coming out of the container when it gets here to get a baseline with brand new boats
Weighing boats right out of the trailer isn't really going to tell us much as the class is really interested in sailing weight not hull weight. In fact hull weight could be very misleading as there is no guarantee that all boats come out of the container in the same set up.
Set the boats up, go sailing, get the boats tricked out and then weigh them.
If you are worried about water, ten minutes with a sponge and half an hour in the sun is more than enough effort to get the boats factory dry.
If we want to talk about misleading info, we could look at the fact that a one year old boat could be perceptibly lighter due to the effects of off gassing, or wet sanding.
Go sailing and stop worrying about it. Oh and if you do think you have a light boat, throw in an extra 6 pack (preferably tall boys), far more useful than lead.
Quote from: Matt Sole on February 08, 2011, 09:27:37 PM
Oh and if you do think you have a light boat, throw in an extra 6 pack (preferably tall boys), far more useful than lead.
+1
I wholeheartedly support Soley's recomendation of extra packs of tall boys. Sometimes it looks like I'm going for a full 22' of waterline... ;)
Then I slowly transfer the weight hydraulically from the cocpit cooler to off the transom...
Yeah I think I need to get Narragansett beer to sponsor me....
Quote from: Tim Carter on February 08, 2011, 09:53:41 PM
Quote from: Matt Sole on February 08, 2011, 09:27:37 PM
Oh and if you do think you have a light boat, throw in an extra 6 pack (preferably tall boys), far more useful than lead.
+1
I wholeheartedly support Soley's recomendation of extra packs of tall boys. Sometimes it looks like I'm going for a full 22' of waterline... ;)
Then I slowly transfer the weight hydraulically from the cocpit cooler to off the transom...
That was F'N FUNNY Timbo....!