Viper 640 Class Association Forums

Viper 640 Public Forums => Viper Discussions => Topic started by: Dave Nickerson on January 10, 2018, 02:51:56 PM

Title: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Dave Nickerson on January 10, 2018, 02:51:56 PM
Posted in the Class Members Discussions section of the forums for review and debate.  Couple of interesting ones...
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Brad Boston on January 10, 2018, 04:12:48 PM
I think the tapered spin would be great! You tube videos show how to do it so I can even splice..
Most of the time we replace the sheets now because the cover fails. This would not be a problem if tapering was allowed.
I vote YES!
Brad
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Darren Gilbert on January 10, 2018, 07:07:14 PM
100% agree Brad and Nick.
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Peter Beardsley on January 10, 2018, 07:40:47 PM
I am anti tapered sheets and halyards.  I don't think it adds much performance benefit but it does add some time and cost for sure.  We run 7mm Excel Fusion jib sheets and those run as fast as any tapered jib sheets could possibly run, and are way more durable -- they are ok on our hands as long as we are wearing gloves, and they whip through the blocks even in light air.  We use similar stuff on our spin sheets and again, no issue whatsoever.  If your leeward spin sheet is hanging in the water going downwind, and you're using class minimum diameter sheets, it's a sign that you either need to heat it up, or that no one should be racing.  I've been involved in a few light air drifter downwind finishes in the past 12 months in Vipers, coming out on the right side of all of them I think in conditions where some boats were TLEd, and our sheets STILL never dragged in the water since you have to sail hot enough in those conditions to keep moving forward. 

Anyhow, this is a solution in search of a problem.  If the rule passes, I will feel the need to get tapered sheets and halyards to make sure that we have the best stuff, but I'll feel stupid about doing so because we didn't need them.  And we all know plenty of people in our local fleets who will either be slow to upgrade or won't upgrade at all, and to the extent there is a minor performance benefit (particularly with the spin sheets in super light air), then that's another variable those teams will have to account for, and the more of those variables that exist and the more work they have to do to make their boat like the top boat in the fleet, the less likely they will be to want to play.

One of the great things at NAs was saddling up next to Viper 263 halfway through the regatta to check out The Red Boat to see if Marcus & Co. had made major modifications or built a better mousetrap that none of us knew about.  They hadn't (except maybe to the extent everything looked straight, but there wasn't any new fangled rigging or other setup that hadn't occurred to the rest of us over the years).  They just sailed the boat better, and won the NAs their first time out. 
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Matt Rowlinson on January 10, 2018, 11:06:27 PM
I have commented on another thread, but will expand here. If I do the rope work myself, it will def. take hours, not minutes, that I could otherwise spend sailing. And if I have to pay for the work--price quoted is about $100 USD; will be more in canada; given how the boat eats sheets, the extra expense will likely be a couple of hundred a season. And how will this make the racing better?  'Fraid Grendel is a no. Thinking aloud here....I guess we'd end up using the Gucci sheets for regattas and having an untapered set for club racing--so another bunch of containers to keep separate and possibly get mixed up...so, jeez--still no.
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Peter Beardsley on January 11, 2018, 10:31:55 AM
We can let the sailmakers chime in on the material change, but the representation that was made to the tech committee is that the material change will not result in a significant price increase, if any.
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: John Leyland on January 11, 2018, 12:17:49 PM
On the matter of tapered sheets, I taught myself via Youtube to splice so could learn how to taper sheets too if I deemed necessary.  Need something to do out in the winter i.e., rainy Pacific NorthWET!

On the matter of jib materials, a good friend of mine who works for North has indicated that the price difference between Pentex and an Aramid fibre is negligible.
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Craig Wilusz on January 17, 2018, 04:45:27 PM
I'll chime in here on the tapered sheets idea.

As for Jib Sheets, I see no advantage at all, so why bother.

  As for tapered spin sheets.  Setting up a continuous spin sheet, where the sail can be trimmed comfortably on a tight reach, tapering the sheets using 8mm Marston Plus, I save approximately 6.7oz total (postal scale).  So the weight savings to time and costs just don't make sense.  So, I will vote note myself.

Stay warm.  We had ice on the bridges today here in Fort Walton, bridges were closed.  Jeezus it was cold.

Craig
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Peter Beardsley on January 17, 2018, 04:50:33 PM
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on January 17, 2018, 04:45:27 PM

  As for tapered spin sheets.  Setting up a continuous spin sheet, where the sail can be trimmed comfortably on a tight reach, tapering the sheets using 8mm Marston Plus, I save approximately 6.7oz total (postal scale).  So the weight savings to time and costs just don't make sense.  So, I will vote note myself.
Never a good sign when one of the people who could have made money off of the rule change plans to vote "no"
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Brad Boston on January 17, 2018, 04:59:20 PM
I just like to tinker on my boat and make it look cool...Like I said before, you can learn on youtub and have some fun!
Part of owning a boat for me is having fun at the dock spicing it up!
Brad
Jackpot 235
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Craig Wilusz on January 17, 2018, 05:13:19 PM
Brad needs to pimp Jackpots's trailer.

You know, lowering it, flat/fat tires, spinner rims, underglow lights, fuzzy dice on mast crutch, kick ass sound system blasting "Informer" by Snow, custom trailer license plate like "MAPL LEF" or "HOC KEY"....
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Tim Carter on January 17, 2018, 07:09:40 PM
I am well stocked on the beer and popcorn,   keep 'em rolling

=)
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: John Leyland on January 18, 2018, 12:43:06 PM
LOL!!!
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Justin Scott on January 26, 2018, 08:46:45 AM
Tapered Lines:
This is an important perception issue for the Class.  The Viper appeals to a growing audience of amateur sailors in a world where leisure time to go sailing is valuable and scarce. They love our mantra of Ease, Simplicity and Affordability.  Brad likes to spend his spare time splicing lines and pimping his ride and I totally respect that but the uniqueness of the Viper message is less boat work, more sailing. The cost issue is impactful. If we allow tapered jib sheets, where do we draw the line? Tapered jib sheets have zero meaningful benefit for ease of use other than Gucci looks. Which will lead to tapered halyards and tapered line sets for the whole boat. The $100 per line is misleading......because you have to replace the line not just pay the additional cost of splicing. For new boats that means Rondar has to out source rather than buy spools and add $700 to the cost of a new boat. It's not just the absolute cost.... The image of a passion for keeping the boat "affordable" and "simple" takes a big hit.

Those of us who are out there promoting the class to prospective new owners need small concrete examples that we can point to .....that illustrate what is different about the Viper class....examples that show that we really care about keeping the class, Easy, Simple and Affordable.
"We don't allow tapered sheets". "Only one suit of sails max per year" "Boat as supplied by builder with a few minimal exception" are key examples that we use in the front line of growing the class.

It seems a small thing......but I have recently joined a new yacht club and I am hosting demos, and talking to former Lightening Sonar and J24 owners and when I am contrasting the Viper with the Melges 20, J 70 and even some of the traditional classes.....and I mention no tapered sheets, it always gets nods of approval.

There are tons of sailors out there who abandoned regular competitive sailing because of the "arms race" .  Let's bring them back! The Viper is the right boat for them.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Peter and Craig oppose the tapered sheets. They have sold more Vipers and brought in more new owners than any other class members. Let's help the guys in the front line of growing our class by keeping the story intact.

Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Justin Scott on January 26, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on January 17, 2018, 04:45:27 PM

Stay warm.  We had ice on the bridges today here in Fort Walton, bridges were closed.  Jeezus it was cold.

Craig

Giggle.  It was cold in F Dub?  The bridges got icy?   You guys really dont know what cold means.  The ocean in the harbor froze here. Mambo Kings were playing hockey where we sail Optis in the summer.
Time to go to Perth!
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Brad Boston on January 26, 2018, 04:55:40 PM
Hi everyone! Wow what fun this is..
I do not care how people vote on this topic as everyone has their own opinion.
Some are clearly more vocal then others, Some like playing with boats and some like replacing sheets and halyards just because the cover broke..

This boat is fantastic and a joy to sail. That is why Lee and I have been in the class since 2008. I do like the simplicity but I also like tinkering in a lower scale.

Anyway enjoy and see you at the next event!

Brad
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Craig Wilusz on January 27, 2018, 09:46:17 AM
Justin, it was very cold in Florida, but we prevailed..........
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Drew Harper on January 31, 2018, 10:17:12 AM
I agree with Peter B....I'm a rigger and it's easy to whip them up but there really is no need and it drives up costs across the board. Rondar will HAVE to add this to the new boat otherwise people will complain that the boat isn't 'race ready' etc. I'm on board with the sail fabric changes though as there is some cost/benefit there.
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Peter Beardsley on January 31, 2018, 11:27:59 AM
I jinxed myself by posting in this thread...we got TLEd in a drifter in Sarasota two weekends ago, but I don't think tapered sheets would have saved us.  Woof. 
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: John Leyland on January 31, 2018, 11:49:26 AM
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on January 27, 2018, 09:46:17 AM
Justin, it was very cold in Florida, but we prevailed..........

Wow! What were the drifts like?
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Justin Scott on February 04, 2018, 03:56:39 PM
Quote from: John Leyland on January 31, 2018, 11:49:26 AM
Quote from: Craig Wilusz on January 27, 2018, 09:46:17 AM
Justin, it was very cold in Florida, but we prevailed..........

Wow! What were the drifts like?

Apparently the snow tapered off later.

Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Dan Tucker on February 27, 2018, 09:13:01 AM
I don't have a vote, but I'd be a "no" on tapering sheets for the reasons that Peter, Craig and Justin explained. And I can splice and taper pretty well myself.

FWIW, I'm told that Nick Jerwood unwrapped a new factory stock boat in Perth 3 weeks before the Worlds and sailed it as supplied to a World Championship win. With mid-boom mainsheet even. I know that people love to tinker with their boats, which is fine (within the rules of course). But we do see this over and over again.
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Drew Harper on March 14, 2018, 09:16:07 PM
Quote from: Dan Tucker on February 27, 2018, 09:13:01 AM
I don't have a vote, but I'd be a "no" on tapering sheets for the reasons that Peter, Craig and Justin explained. And I can splice and taper pretty well myself.

FWIW, I'm told that Nick Jerwood unwrapped a new factory stock boat in Perth 3 weeks before the Worlds and sailed it as supplied to a World Championship win. With mid-boom mainsheet even. I know that people love to tinker with their boats, which is fine (within the rules of course). But we do see this over and over again.

No surprise there. In big air mid boom sheeting is awesome, hell you vang the shit out of it anyways. ...gets rid of the cluge at the back of the boat too!
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Justin Scott on March 16, 2018, 11:52:54 AM
Quote from: Dan Tucker on February 27, 2018, 09:13:01 AM

FWIW, I'm told that Nick Jerwood unwrapped a new factory stock boat in Perth 3 weeks before the Worlds and sailed it as supplied to a World Championship win. With mid-boom mainsheet even. I know that people love to tinker with their boats, which is fine (within the rules of course). But we do see this over and over again.

Hmmm ......The boat was acquired in September 2017. The Jerwood/Devreis boat was one of the best prepared entries I have ever seen for a viper regatta.  Brian , Matt and Nick mapped out a well thought out training program that peaked at the worlds and good boat prep was part of that program.  Im sure Nick would be happy to share their practice and preparation in the lead up to the Worlds if we asked him. Locals tell me that in recent weeks they were out practicing 3- 4 days a week. I dont know much of that is urban legend but their victory was not a "jump in the boat" accident. Their preparation was phenomenal.  Their fittings,lines and rigging were tweaked to the exact set up they wanted. More importantly their boat handling was orchestrated to perfection. It was so good that it was distracting to watch. It was like having ringside seats at the ballet!

At this moment in time, in breeze, this team is simply the best in the world.

But it was not just the depth of talent and the humongous preparation that made these guys true champions.....you could not ask for three nicer guys to be on the race course with.  Over the course of 24 races during 6 days of racing + tuning sessions and the layday party, we got to know them and the other Aussie boats really well.

Nick and his wife have a great life story. Welsh, came to Esperance for a Flying Fifteen Worlds many years ago and just decided not to go home.  Nick was a terrible influence on Jackie.  Temptation itself! Before we left WA, the Jerwoods influence had Jackie looking at real estate in WA!!! 

Nick has been a big influence on young sailors in WA. Many young Australian Olympians have come through Nick's coaching programs.  He can not only win but help others to win....and delivers it all with a Welsh smile and an Australian tan! 

So many other teams I could talk about as well. Thank you to everyone from Australia. This was the most fun and best regatta I have sailed in ever.
Title: Re: 2018 Proposed Rule Changes
Post by: Brad Boston on March 27, 2018, 04:21:13 PM
Just wondering when the rule changes will take effect!
Brad