Viper 640 PHRF

[Peter Beardsley]

Actually, the YRALIS rating is worse than advertised -- it was 108 for Vipers but was changed at a meeting last year, so now Vipers are 96 (no outboard, hiking) and Melges 24s are 99.  Not much of a body of evidence for comparison in either class in WLIS though. 

It also says that the Viper weighs 700 lbs, can be sailed with up to 900 lbs of crew weight, and has a masthead kite, so there are some faulty assumptions worth challenging there if anyone wants to make an issue out if it (even though most clubs in WLIS will not let a Viper race PHRF due to not meeting the minimum safety regulations). 

[Craig Wilusz]

Our area GYA (gulf Yachting Association) bumped us for a 99 to a 102 to reflect the differences as compared to the Melges 24.  However our max crew limit is 7.  Seven people.  Be like clowns jumping out of a VW Beatle.

[Somers Kempe]

Jesus!  7 people!
Sounds like Bermuda fitted dinghy racing to me!

[Scott Ellis]

PNW
Melges 99
Viper 105T (temporary rating to see how things shake out for the year)

[Craig Wilusz]

Yep, 7 people, or 1260lbs recommend crew weight max.  hahahaha

[Luke Porter]

Having been becalmed far too often after a race this year I'm thinking about putting an engine on my Viper for PHRF racing. I'm talking to the local handicapping people about how this would change my rating and was told I'd probably be looking at +6 points. In Ontario, According to Harvey, they get +12. I asked about looking at the issue with regards the relative weights and performances and got the following:

"If you officially apply for the change it will be addressed at the next
NSYA handicap meeting and is possible will be treated as a modified
boat.  However we did have a Soling that had an inboard deisel with a
shaft.  It was only given +6 for this and we all know that it was much
much slower."

I don't rate my chances very high against attitudes like that!

I just wanted to bitch, a 27lb engine on the back is far less hindrance than my driving regardless of rating changes.

Luke.

[Olaf Bleck]

Here's a pic of my outboard.  It's a 1.5hp air cooled, basically a weed-eater, built in tank, $80 craigslist.  I welded up a simple bracket and bolted it to the Bennett boat motor mount holes.  A couple shelving angle brackets and a small piece of 2x4 would probably do it too.

Pushes the boat at about 3.5-3.7 upwind for about 2 miles on a tank.

PHRF New England requires a motor that can do the square root of the length in knots on flat water with no breeze, which works out to 4.4 or so, and I think this one is about sufficient. I'm not sure about the prop pitch.  I didn't weigh it, but it's not heavy.  Maybe 20-25 lbs with fuel and bracket said and done.  Not enough certainly to warrant +6...  Move the crew forward a bit to compensate for the stern weight.

PHRF in general doesn't like sport boats, let alone small ones which can zip around the establishment's leadmines on a whim.  You just gotta take what they give you and sail fast.

[David Oliver]

I got my rating moved from 99 to 102 - my bad initially, I won the single handed race the first time sailing the boat.  Last time I win anything, I bet. . .  No motor, but no official challenge.  Although some sailors tell me I have to have one, I have found no written rule to that effect.  Did I mention I know the ratings committee chairman, and he said he could move any rating 3 seconds without a committee vote?!

David

[Olaf Bleck]

I got my rating moved from 99 to 102 - my bad initially, I won the single handed race the first time sailing the boat.  Last time I win anything, I bet. . .  No motor, but no official challenge.  Although some sailors tell me I have to have one, I have found no written rule to that effect. 

It all depends on your region's PHRF rules.  PHRF New England's only rule if you read them, is that you have to have a motor.  Many have told me that you have to have a head, lifelines, etc. etc., but that's not true in this region.  However, many PHRF regattas will require you to meet certain ISAF standards, which is usually cat 4 or cat 5.   The Viper does meet cat 5 "inshore ocean racing" if you carry certain gear (anchor, a bucket, throwout line, air horn, etc.).  Cat 4 is more serious and requires lifeline, bow and stern pulpits, etc.

On the other hand, some regattas just want more boats to participate and want everyone to have a good time, so they'll write in a special rule in the NOR that says they can also accept any boat they want if it doesn't qualify otherwise.

Some regattas (Key West for example), also have a 24ft minimum rule, which keeps all the small sport boats and dinghy's out.

[Luke Porter]

It all depends on your region's PHRF rules.  PHRF New England's only rule if you read them, is that you have to have a motor.  Many have told me that you have to have a head, lifelines, etc. etc., but that's not true in this region.  However, many PHRF regattas will require you to meet certain ISAF standards, which is usually cat 4 or cat 5.   The Viper does meet cat 5 "inshore ocean racing" if you carry certain gear (anchor, a bucket, throwout line, air horn, etc.).  Cat 4 is more serious and requires lifeline, bow and stern pulpits, etc.

Locally the SIs always read that boats have to carry minimum Coast Guard safety gear (which isn't much for us) and that boats must conform to class rules if there are any. That takes care of pretty much everything and allows everyone to race. It's only the offshore/coastal races that have any stiffer requirements.

Luke.

[Thomas Leith]

> At it's heart it's trying to solve a math problem using politics - a good recipe for failure.

The politics thing is overblown. And it isn't about math at all -- PHRF is an empirical system. The measurement rules are math problems.

At heart it is trying to come up with a single rating for each boat to be used for all race courses in all sea states and all wind conditions to make racing "fair enough" to have fun at. If you're in a locale where both the M24 and the Viper can be expected to spend a lot of time planing, the ratings should be closer together. If you're in a light air venue where neither boat will spend a lot of time planing they'll be a little farther apart. Off the wind the Viper will plane a little sooner than a M24, but in displacement mode the M24 has water line length. If you're sailing in waves, well, you tell me which boat has a better time in waves and that'll tell you what should happen to the ratings. There is a developing consensus that the Viper 640 should rate 9 - 12 seconds slower than a M24. I'd love to hear of "natural experiments" where a top M24 crew moves to a Viper and races his old buddies in a mixed fleet -- then impute a rating that would put them where they finished last season in their M24. That could be enlightening. Maybe there is some decent data from the UK's Portsmouth reporting too, I don't know.

As for PHRF committees "not liking" sport boats -- what they want, just like the rest of us, is more boats they can race with. It is simply wrong to make a PHRF Division with boats of wildly differing designs, and it is BEST for a PHRF Division to have at most a 60 second delta between the slowest and fastest boat in the division. In regattas and our buoy series, we put the sportboats in their own division -- they don't race the leadmines.  The leadmine guys would rather we all bought leadmines and raced with them, of course. We wish all the M20 & M24 guys would buy Vipers. It is the same idea. Then there is the fact that a single number rating system can't really deal with boats that sail in two modes.

Bottom line: take the club level mixed-fleet racing for what it is. Be happy you have a "structured sailing activity" to have fun with. With what I'm hearing here (PHRF ratings about the same as the M24 in some locales) look at it like this: if you sail five mile races, a top Viper team should finish within about 60 real-time seconds of a top M24 team. If you think you're a top Viper team, go to a Viper regatta to find out. When you have some regatta results and club race results to compare, your local PHRF handicappers should be able to make adjustments, but it'll take a couple or three years.

[Craig Wilusz]

Viper Ratings from US Sailing PHRF database book:

VIPER 640 ODR
BC SAILING 99 A 08 1
CARLYLE 106 B 09 2
CHESAPEAKE 96 C 08 5
EAST COAST CRS 96 A 05 0
EASTERN CONN 99 A 09 2
FLORIDA SUNCOAST 102 B 98 2
FORT WORTH 99 B 10 1
GALVESTON BAY 96 A 10 1
GULF PHRF 96 A 07 2
LAKE CHAMPLAIN 102 B 10 2
LAKE KEOWEE 100 A 03 1
LAKE ONTARIO 99 A 08 2
NARRAGANSETT BAY 108 A 96 1
NE FLORIDA 96 A 97 2
NEW ENGLAND 99 C 99 1
NO CALIFORNIA 96 B 10 2
NORTHERN ROCKIES 99 A 02 1
OKLAHOMA CITY 96 B 03 1
SO CALIFORNIA 111 A 08 8
SOUTH TEXAS 99 A 10 1
TEXOMA 99 A 04 1
YRALIS 96 C 09 0

[Craig Wilusz]

Melges 24 from US Sailing PHRF data base:

MELGES 24 ODR
AUSTIN 105 A 95 2
CARLYLE 94 B 08 7
CHARLESTON 87 C 00 7
CHESAPEAKE 99 C 09 30
CHICAGO MORF 90 A 08 0
DETROIT 99 B 09 1
EAST COAST CRS 93 A 08 1
EASTERN CONN 90 B 10 5
ESSEX COUNTY 96 C 01 1
FLORIDA SUNCOAST 105 B 98 1
GALVESTON BAY 96 A 06 0
GULF PHRF 96 C 08 6
HARBOR ISLAND 99 B 04 0
LAKE ERIE 81 A 05 2
LAKE HURON 93 A 08 0
LAKE LANIER 87 C 02 8
LAKE MICHIGAN 90 C 09 6
LAKE MURRAY 87 B 97 2
LAKE ONTARIO 96 C 09 6
LAKE TAHOE 84 C 94 6
MID ATLANTIC 96 C 03 6
MONTEREY BAY 87 B 02 1
NARRAGANSETT BAY 99 B 05 1
NE FLORIDA 96 A 99 8
NEW ENGLAND 102 C 94 3
NO CALIFORNIA 84 C 09 40
NORTH CAROLINA 90 A 04 0
NORTHERN ROCKIES 99 A 00 1
NORTHWEST 99 C 09 6
NOVA SCOTIA 96 C 08 2
OKLAHOMA CITY 96 B 10 3
PERCY PRIEST 90 B 00 0
PICKWICK 105 B 94 1
PUERTO RICO 99 B 94 2
RUSH CREEK 96 A 97 1
SAN DIEGO 84 C 99 2
SE FLORIDA 90 C 96 11
SO CALIFORNIA 84 A 08 13
SOUTH ATLANTIC 87 C 96 1
SOUTH BAY CR 96 B 10 1
SOUTH TEXAS 96 B 10 1
VIRGIN ISLANDS 102 A 94 2
WEST FLORIDA 93 C 09 10
WESTERN CAROLINA 96 A 04 2
YRALIS 99 A 08 2

[Jason Hyerstay]

Thanks for the data!

I think the key to helping the Viper rating, is if people in the strong regions with multiple Vipers do what they can to get a better rating. In regions like ours (Lake Champlain), when I asked about our rating, they don't have enough to look at from our one Viper, so they just check other regions and make an average. I think the Marblehead guys need to do more with PHRF and get the rating right there, and the other regions with big fleets. Even though they have the luxury of OD, if they make inroads with PHRF, it helps the rest of us.

Thanks,

jason

[Craig Wilusz]

Data from the US Sailing book is not quite correct.  For example, the GULF (Gulf YAching Association) current PHRF for Viper 640 os 102, Meles 24 still at 96.  This seems about right with a six second PHRF difference (in my opinion).

Craig