Main Inverting

[Drew Harper]

Tuning guide was a broad range document. Tuning guides REALLY should be issued by each sailmaker. It's the best way to get up to speed with the particular cut/fabric/mold of the sails you're using.

[Peter Ruggiero]

Drew,

    I agree and it is a very nice document to have, espcecially when you are just getting started with the boat.

    I was just thinking out loud that perhaps since these are earlier gen Hyde sails that they may require more pre bend to de power than later gen hyde sails.

     The guide is really a starting point and everyone needs to do their own testing to find out what works for their particular boat, crew, sails, etc.

[Dan Tucker]

     The guide is really a starting point and everyone needs to do their own testing to find out what works for their particular boat, crew, sails, etc.

What works reasonably well for me is the ol ass-elerometer. Full hike and not flat? Wind on the uppers, blocks out. Sitting upright and inboard? Wind off the uppers & blocks in.

I'm usually not slow upwind, relying on the ass-elerometer. Stupid is another story...  :-O

[Peter Ruggiero]

Thought I'd update what we found.  When we went to take the boat out yesterday for the race we found that the port lower was tighter than the starboard lower by a good amount.  I'm guessing this played a role in the main inverting on us.

[Drew Harper]

Thought I'd update what we found.  When we went to take the boat out yesterday for the race we found that the port lower was tighter than the starboard lower by a good amount.  I'm guessing this played a role in the main inverting on us.

Time to do a quick check on your geometry. Measure the mast butt, side to side. Measure your chainplates stern to plate. Mast butt from stern.

Make sure you are keeping your masthead square....the old main halyard trick on this one.

You may not have exact same numbers on the Loos, port vs starboard and have the mast in column.

I'm not sure how the lowers are affecting inversion. Usually that is a case of overbend in the mast....maybe Tac will chime in. Lowers restrict mastbend.

You guys have the tuning guide...yes? Run through your setup against the guide and verify your positions.

What kind of nominal breeze is this happening in?

[Peter Ruggiero]

Drew,

    Those are all things we will have to pay better attention to.

    I may not of been clear early on, the inversion has only happened to us once, winds were ~15
 
    When we took the boat out yesterday (wind ~6-8knts), we set it up better (per tuning guide) and the boat handled real well; fast and had neutral helm.  We were racing phrf against J24's, S2's, etc. 

    Upwind we believe we were doing good, we seemed to be out pointing the other boats while at the same time having a slight speed advantage on them. 

    Downwind was a little different as we heated up to gain speed they were able to point ddw at the mark.  This is something we will have to work on, finding the sweet spot for different wind conditions.

   

[Drew Harper]

6-8 you'll find yourself sailing pretty deep. Probably in the 140-155 range, depending on sea state. You just don't get enough speed when you heat up to offset the extra distance.

Wish some others would pipe in here. I'd like to hear what else folks are doing.

[Peter Ruggiero]

Drew,

    I think you're right, the boat does like to be heated up some but I don't think the serious extra distance is worth it.  I'm going to try and get a boat speed vs TWA sheet together for different wind conditions and setups.  I think it will really help out sailing the boat PHRF.

[Drew Harper]

Pretty easy to do. Borrow a hand held anenomter...take a wind reading..direction and velocity.

Drop two buoys...dead upwind/downind from each other about 1/4 mile apart.

Sail upwind to the polars..about 5.8 in 9 TWS inhauled and main mostly centered. Check your angles off true wind direction. Make sure you sail approximately the same angle off TWD.

Sail downwind at 170 off TWD from top to bottom of course (1/4 mile marks) Clock your time for this..start to finish.
Do same for 160, then 150, then 140 then 120.

This will give you real data and is kind of fun.

Drew,

    I think you're right, the boat does like to be heated up some but I don't think the serious extra distance is worth it.  I'm going to try and get a boat speed vs TWA sheet together for different wind conditions and setups.  I think it will really help out sailing the boat PHRF.

[Robert Bernard]

I had a J80 sailor recommend getting weight to windward to heal the boat slightly to windward so the spinnaker would drift around slightly and allow the boat to sail a lower angle. I'm not sure this will work on our boats. Anyone else?

[Drew Harper]

I had a J80 sailor recommend getting weight to windward to heal the boat slightly to windward so the spinnaker would drift around slightly and allow the boat to sail a lower angle. I'm not sure this will work on our boats. Anyone else?

In my experience this completely puts the brakes on a Viper. The Kites could be cut with larger shoulders then we'd lose considerable 'heat' speed. The raked rudder on the Viper is unhappy with windward heal. The boat gets a nasty leehelm which is slow. I've tried every rig variation, sail variation and weight placement to remove the leehelm on weather heal...unsuccessfully. We always keep the boat healing and if it's light (under 6 knots TWS) we always drop the jib.

The Viper is shaped completely different from the J80. It has a really big butt and if you hear gurgling, that's bad. Get weight forward..INCLUDING the driver.

[Dan Tucker]

Drew,

This depends on the kite... A Hyde can't do it. A North, Q/Dieball can. Only in light, and be careful not to overdo it, but it can be devastating. One trick is to ease the pole in a couple of inches to allow a softer luff, like easing the tackline on some Assy boats...

Weight forward in the light stuff, ABSOLUTELY.

[Drew Harper]

We have a well sailed boat on the West Coast with new Norths. We've eyed those pretty hard and they just aren't much different than the latest Gen Hyde. North's don't seem to soak any better than the Hydes, Doyles, Ullmans or Q's. I sail J120's which are the queens of rolling to weather and tossing that big-ole-luff to windward. Don't reach up worth a squat though. Luff's are ridiculously long which works well soaking.

On thing that does work well on a Viper is Wing and Wing. It's important to ease the pole in but it's loads of fun at the bottom mark to come in on starboard tack with the kite on starboard side...deep. Really gets some interesting conversations happening at the corners (lol) and the boat moves well and remains remarkably balanced.

Drew,

This depends on the kite... A Hyde can't do it. A North, Q/Dieball can. Only in light, and be careful not to overdo it, but it can be devastating. One trick is to ease the pole in a couple of inches to allow a softer luff, like easing the tackline on some Assy boats...

Weight forward in the light stuff, ABSOLUTELY.

[Dan Tucker]

We have a well sailed boat on the West Coast with new Norths. We've eyed those pretty hard and they just aren't much different than the latest Gen Hyde. North's don't seem to soak any better than the Hydes, Doyles, Ullmans or Q's. I sail J120's which are the queens of rolling to weather and tossing that big-ole-luff to windward. Don't reach up worth a squat though. Luff's are ridiculously long which works well soaking.

On thing that does work well on a Viper is Wing and Wing. It's important to ease the pole in but it's loads of fun at the bottom mark to come in on starboard tack with the kite on starboard side...deep. Really gets some interesting conversations happening at the corners (lol) and the boat moves well and remains remarkably balanced.

Drew,

This depends on the kite... A Hyde can't do it. A North, Q/Dieball can. Only in light, and be careful not to overdo it, but it can be devastating. One trick is to ease the pole in a couple of inches to allow a softer luff, like easing the tackline on some Assy boats...

Weight forward in the light stuff, ABSOLUTELY.

I wasn't going to mention that one!  ;)

[Drew Harper]

Oooooops  [-)