Beating J/70s

[Jason Hyerstay]

We are 102 to 117 in PRHF. No problem in big wind. In SF you guys would be laughing at my questions!

But in the light...

We're hiking hard and staying flat. We're getting the jib in tighter than ever upwind. We are roll-tacking and roll-gybing. I'm learning to drive something bigger than my Force 5!

How do we keep a better VMG downwind on those flukey light-wind days?

We are finally getting things together enough to beat them boat for boat, but we need more to win on corrected, especially in races with an upwind finish.

What more can we do in terms of trim and handling? The J/70 skippers are wily and experienced, but we have athletics and levity on our side.

And I am winning the Wednesday Night Series, but only because I always get out there! Our Monday Night Sportboat Series is the tougher nut to crack. Beating all the other boats last time wasn't enough to win.

http://lcyc.info/racing/results/2013

Thanks!

jason

[Peter Beardsley]

When you say "light," how light are we talking?  Honestly Jason, a 15-second delta vs. a J/70 is extremely favorable for the Viper, and in light conditions, it should only be exacerbated - the only condition I've seen where a 70 has anything on a Viper at all is upwind in 10+ kts, and even there, they don't have much.  Miami/Charleston/Cedar Point/local racing/time spent on a 70 the deltas are more like 21-42 seconds/mile depending on the conditions. 

So this has less to do about the 70 and more to do with improving light air Viper sailing. 

You should really come out to some Viper one design regattas this summer to see how you stack up one-design - it's hard to evaluate this stuff from a distance without seeing what you guys are doing.  I'm slightly concerned by your comment "light air" and "hiking hard" -- how light, and where are you set up rake/rig tension wise?  A Viper is a powered-up boat, but in less than 8 kts (if that's what you're calling light), I haven't heard much about "hard hiking."  If you're in less than 6 knots downwind, the jib should be coming down on the runs.  There needs to be constant communication with the kite trimmer and driver, and you need to stay in the puffs at all costs.  We don't know how you're attacking the course vs. the 70.  Seriously, come out this summer, get out there with some other Vipers, and let's figure it out together post racing over some beers -- you know everyone will be psyched to see you and to spend the time sharing everything they know to help get you up to speed on the Lake.   

[Michelle Lee]

Peter, 

It's not uncommon around here to encounter less than 6 knots in the summer, so we probably need to follow your suggestion and start dropping the jib downwind.  When you drop your jib, what do you do to keep it on the deck?  Ours seems to want to swim and it doesn't look like there's much up there to attach a shock cord to.

[Dave Dougall]

Center the jib on deck by pulling and cleating both sheets of the jib.  That should keep it on deck and not dragging in the water.  I too am racing against 2 J/70's on Lake George NY where I have 111 phrf (aluminum mast) and they have a 120 phrf.  So far in the last 2 races I have had no problem beating them on actual and corrected times.  To their defense, it is their 1st season.  Both have been on the lake for less than a month.

[Jason Hyerstay]

Ok, I've changed the title because I don't think I described it correctly. I think the trouble zone we have is the classic one, where you are at the edge of being able to plane. It is not always clear to me when it is worth it to sail longer distances at hotter angles vs trying to point as close to the mark and sail the shortest distance. In these conditions, the J/70s are not planing but their big masthead spinnakers are full and they are just going as low as they can. I'm doing the S curves with pressure to stay fast and then drive down with my pressure and then repeat, but when do you just give up that and just soak low?

In our second sportboat monday we did beat all the other boats, but didn't quite save our time on the top 70. We would have had a few more tries but a squall came through with threat of lightning and we had to make a run for the docks.

Another case where it is hard to correct is on odd leg courses (from shortening or having us finish near the club on a burger burn night), where we really have to out-point and out-speed on the upwind legs since we don't have as much downwind to get all the correction separation we need in planing weather.

[Drew Harper]

Jason...a couple of tips.

1. If you're truly in less than 8, careful with the rig setting. You'll be thinking that super soft is right BUT if you are sailing Hydes, they are extremely drafty and you'll want a little bend to flatten them to keep 'em working in the light. With Norths and Ullmans, under 8 TWS is base -3 to -6 turns on the caps. No lowers, about 3" of main foot showing between the boom, no Cunny and wind down the batten adjusters on the main. Better yet, get some softer battens.

2. Jib. DEFINITELY drop the Jib in under 6 Knots TWS with the kite up. Practice roll gybes (late main) and you'll not need to reset the Jib whenever gybing. Also make sure you either get a SUPER light top batten for the jib or simply take it out.

3. Low and fast is the goal in the light stuff...not sure about your nav skills but run the plots with speed and bearing on a course sheet in lower speed boat speed ranges and you'll see what I mean. (Attached is a Target sheet from North that might give you some references.)

4. Careful with rig tuning but generally shorten up the headstay to power up the rig...HOWEVER...if your boat is developing lee helm (hate that part of the Viper) then forget the headstay and leave it to base on your tuning guide. You never want to be fighting leehelm...ever.

5. Get the big ass out of the water. If you need to sit on the rail to drive, have your middle sit on the leeward side, hiking in the forward position straps and your bow sitting on the deck cap next to the mast. You should have tiller extension all the way out and be sitting in the middle position of next to the shrouds (if your extension goes that long).

[Jeff Jones]

I have one important tip for light air viper sailing.

Never, ever run out of beer.

[Garrett Johns]

Lol.....too funny JJ, but so true!
The only thing I would add is that when it is light, we over sheet the main a bit when we are trying to sail low. This is opposite of your normal tendency but it allows the spin to draw and you are able to rotate the shoulder out to weather a bit. It's a fine line to keep it there without collapsing or accidentally rolling it to weather too far and gybing the main. Lots of communication between trimmer and skipper. In this stuff we have the trimmer stand up by the mast and lean against the boom to hold it and the forward guy sitting by the leeward jib track.
It feels painful at times but if your not planning anyway, your vmg's are good compared to the guys reaching all over the course.
Keep us posted. Interesting topic and I'm curious as to what you find works for you.

[Jason Hyerstay]

Thanks for the tips.

I have to confess that I haven't done any rig tuning since I put up the mast. This is something I need to work on.

[Peter Beardsley]

Summary notes (glad to see this thread taking off in the 24 hours since I last logged on).

1. Michelle: Dave D. is 100% right on how to keep the jib out of the water.  No bungee needed. 

2. Rig measurements: even though the Viper is not a super tweaky boat, you need to do the basic measurements vs. the tuning guide for the sails you're using to know if you're in the ballpark.  You need to know at the start of the season what your headstay length is and remember if you change it (probably the least adjusted part of most Vipers though, and that's ok).  You need to own a Loos gauge and know where you are on the rig before and after sailing each day on your uppers.  If you're not planning on picking up a Loos gauge and want to eyeball this setting, your leeward shroud should never be floppy, or just barely go floppy when sailing close-hauled, fully trimmed, fully hiked if you have more than 5 kts of wind.  In less than 5, you can be at a lighter setting (as light as 22 on the Loos gauge), but that is a tricky setting - you'll go faster than everyone by footing hard (most new Viper owners pinch too much in very light conditions, and pinch too little in windy conditions).  However, as soon as you start getting into hiking conditions, you need to wind the rig up in a hurry to take out the slack (note that you can't change rig tension mid race as per class rules).  We had a very bad first race at the 2012 NAs due mostly to being too loose on the rig - the day started light and we were around 23 on the uppers.  First row great start, everyone around us was higher and at least as fast, and we were in the back row quickly.  Second race we tightened up the rig to our normal setting instead of being cute, were over early in the middle of the line with an I-flag up, and still finished 15 places than we did the race prior just because we were able to hang upwind properly.  Lesson learned.  You should also measure the spreader angles if you want to really have a great understanding of where you're set up vs. the tuning guide, but there's not a ton of reason to think outside the box with that measurement most of the time (though some people seem to be experimenting -- just make sure you're where your sailmaker recommends)

3. S-turns downwind: not sure what you mean by this Jason.  S-turns to me sound like a lot of steering.  It always pays to be smooth.  As far as when you should and shouldn't plane, while a Viper can plane in 9-10 kts, on a windward-leeward, the question is "when should you try to plane? (i.e., when should you heat it up, get the team in the straps to hike down the run, going as fast as you can, distance sailed be damned).  I think that crossover on a Viper is around 12 kts.  Granted, in 12 kts you're planing without being in the straps, but we just don't heat it up for that extra bit of ummph since I think it involves too much distance sailed usually.  We put the forward crew on the leeward tank, kite trimmer and driver to weather, and just sail the boat in pure VMG mode - if we plane, great, but we don't usually chase.  That is our mode from 7-11 kts or so. 

In 6 or less, it's a very different mode downwind.  Drop jib, forward crew way to leeward (and forward of shrouds), middle crew on windward tank to see kite, but not hiking, butt on the inside of the tank, feet in the middle of the boat, driver frequently sitting in the middle of the boat on the cockpit floor -- this is all to induce some leeward heel and avoid lee helm -- the Viper seems to sail best with 3-5 degrees of leeward heel in those conditions, and I hate lee helm.  Lots of communication with the trimmer to know when you can soak a bit, but every bit of soaking and heat is very, very subtle -- take a degree or two, let the boat settle in and accelerate before you go for more. 

But like I said, the best way to figure this out is going to be by getting out there in the same conditions vs. other Vipers and seeing what works, what the top guys are doing, etc.  You and Mark can now do some two-boat testing on the Lake too, which could be a big help if you guys have the time. 

[Jeff Jones]

Good question;  what sails are you using Jason?

I find myself in agreement with Drew on most of this.  We run a bit more cap in dead light than we do in 5 because as he pointed out, you want flatter sails.  But zero chocks and zero lower tension so you don't stiffen up the forestay.   Besides giving you more power a saggy fs helps you point better because the angle of attack relative to your heading is tighter due to the sag.   Make sure you don't have to much halyard tension on your jib?

Drew is also on track with the weather helm.  I like a lot.  If you have a forward swept rudder (likely with your old boat) - get a new one as fast as you can.  That will allow you to run a shorter headstay while maintaining the weather helm.   

Drew is right about your big arse too.   Put the beer forward, and take lots of it.  But not so far forward that your crew has to bounce around a lot when you need a refresher.  That's slow.   

Note:  i have agreed with Drew harper three times in this post. 

 

Jason...a couple of tips.

1. If you're truly in less than 8, careful with the rig setting. You'll be thinking that super soft is right BUT if you are sailing Hydes, they are extremely drafty and you'll want a little bend to flatten them to keep 'em working in the light. With Norths and Ullmans, under 8 TWS is base -3 to -6 turns on the caps. No lowers, about 3" of main foot showing between the boom, no Cunny and wind down the batten adjusters on the main. Better yet, get some softer battens.

2. Jib. DEFINITELY drop the Jib in under 6 Knots TWS with the kite up. Practice roll gybes (late main) and you'll not need to reset the Jib whenever gybing. Also make sure you either get a SUPER light top batten for the jib or simply take it out.

3. Low and fast is the goal in the light stuff...not sure about your nav skills but run the plots with speed and bearing on a course sheet in lower speed boat speed ranges and you'll see what I mean. (Attached is a Target sheet from North that might give you some references.)

4. Careful with rig tuning but generally shorten up the headstay to power up the rig...HOWEVER...if your boat is developing lee helm (hate that part of the Viper) then forget the headstay and leave it to base on your tuning guide. You never want to be fighting leehelm...ever.

5. Get the big ass out of the water. If you need to sit on the rail to drive, have your middle sit on the leeward side, hiking in the forward position straps and your bow sitting on the deck cap next to the mast. You should have tiller extension all the way out and be sitting in the middle position of next to the shrouds (if your extension goes that long).

[Jason Hyerstay]

Good question;  what sails are you using Jason?

Hi Jeff, Peter, Garrett, and Drew:

I am using the 2009 Evolution Sails I got from Dave N. and Moise S. I got Bill Fastiggi and Vermont Sailing Partners approved as my local sail loft as soon as I got the boat, but I can't yet afford new sails.

I used the Evo tuning guide on day one  for about 15 knots, and did my lowers by feel. I still need to take time on the water to check my lowers, and I haven't messed with anything since.

I am about to replace my forestay pin with a big-as-can-fit shackle for bow-line, so this weekend (with no race) would be a good time to adjust my settings and think about per-race tuning. Lately, I have just been hoping that my crew can help me launch the boat fast enough that I can ping the line, calibrate my RaceMaster and plan a clever clear-air start on time that rig tuning is a distant luxury. However, you guys make me think I am wasting my time with my electronics when I should be tuning my shrouds. I think they are both important, but I must admit that when I am driving, I barely have time to look at my two electronic instruments because my telltales are holding my complete attention.

PS, I have a proper Loos Gauge!

And by S-turns, I mean that in up-and-down pressure, I will take fresh wind and heat up, and then drive down with pressure, and then if they wind slows, I will wait until it builds and then heat up and drive down again if I can, within that marginal pressure band.

jason

[Drew Harper]

Good question;  what sails are you using Jason?

I find myself in agreement with Drew on most of this.  We run a bit more cap in dead light than we do in 5 because as he pointed out, you want flatter sails.  But zero chocks and zero lower tension so you don't stiffen up the forestay.   Besides giving you more power a saggy fs helps you point better because the angle of attack relative to your heading is tighter due to the sag.   Make sure you don't have to much halyard tension on your jib?

Drew is also on track with the weather helm.  I like a lot.  If you have a forward swept rudder (likely with your old boat) - get a new one as fast as you can.  That will allow you to run a shorter headstay while maintaining the weather helm.   

Drew is right about your big arse too.   Put the beer forward, and take lots of it.  But not so far forward that your crew has to bounce around a lot when you need a refresher.  That's slow.   

Note:  i have agreed with Drew harper three times in this post. 

 

I think I just fell over dead.....MEDIC

[Dan Tucker]

Note:  i have agreed with Drew harper three times in this post.

A sure sign the Apocalypse is approaching!

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 2

[Drew Harper]

Note:  i have agreed with Drew harper three times in this post.

A sure sign the Apocalypse is approaching!

Did you say epoxylips?