Main Halyard Slippage

[Justin Scott]

A main halyard lock would really help the Viper.  Besides eliminating halyard creep, it would significantly reduce load on the already noodely spar. I know, I know...so many possible improvements, which should we choose.

The load argument is an old wives tale (or old riggers tale) which is not scientificaly correct. The force transmitted down the spar is equal and opposite whether the halyard is secured at the bottom of the mast, half way up the mast or at the top of the mast.

Try this simple experiment with a broom handle. Tie a weight to a string and attach it at all three points. Lift the broom handle and the same force will be transmitted down the broom handle to your hand. 

The creep argument is valid and is why you see it on big racing boats.

Pretty sure the turning block at the top of the spar doubles the compression load between there and the cleat at the bottom, as compared with a lock.  Sorry to be an old wife.

I would support a lock IF I had ever heard of one that could be relied on to release. Main that won't come down is a recipe for fun and games at the crane after racing, to say nothing of safety issues.

We can draw fun diagrams over rum and cokes at Charleston.
Assuming the same tension on the cloth of the main. The main is exerting a 20 Newton down force, the mast wall is exerting a 20 Newton up force. If the halyard is nailed to top of mast, it is exerting a 20 Newton down force. If you extend that main halyard by 2 cm. round a turning block and attach at top of mast (how most halyard locks work) the down force is still 20 Newtons. The force stay the same, no matter how far down the mast you attach the cleat. The length of the halyard does not increase the down force (except for creep).

Try using a piece of line to lift a bucket of water. Tie one end of line to the bucket handle and lift with the single line. Then run the line through the handle and lift the bucket holding both ends of the line. The bucket will weigh the same. You need the same amount of force to lift the bucket , even with the turning block. 

There is come additional force spent on the stretch of length of halyard...which is halyard creep. But its pretty small on a Viper.

[Dave Banyard]

There was a rule change that pretty much allows you to do darned near anything to secure the main halyard, as I recall.

I've seen a couple of boats with horn cleats on the mast or deck.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

For Dan or anyone who has put a horn cleat type system in place of the v-cleats for the main halyard - What brand and size horn cleat?  Where were they attached?  Have been digging around online and haven't really found anything that looks small enough to fit in the space or the holes that are there.  Photos would be great if not too much trouble.

Thanks,
Dave

[Dan Tucker]

Dave,

I don't believe there is a direct replacement that I'm aware of. I haven't looked at the rule language in a while, but I recall it's pretty flexible.

The drawback of adding an additional clear on the mast is putting in more holes. Or mount it on the deck and you need a better turning block as the OE block probably isn't load rated. I like the simplicity of the stock system and would replace the cleats if necessary.

[Justin Scott]

Dave,

I like the simplicity of the stock system and would replace the cleats if necessary.

Frequently.

[Matt Rowlinson]

[/quote]

We can draw fun diagrams over rum and cokes at Charleston.
Assuming the same tension on the cloth of the main. The main is exerting a 20 Newton down force, the mast wall is exerting a 20 Newton up force. If the halyard is nailed to top of mast, it is exerting a 20 Newton down force. If you extend that main halyard by 2 cm. round a turning block and attach at top of mast (how most halyard locks work) the down force is still 20 Newtons. The force stay the same, no matter how far down the mast you attach the cleat. The length of the halyard does not increase the down force (except for creep).

Try using a piece of line to lift a bucket of water. Tie one end of line to the bucket handle and lift with the single line. Then run the line through the handle and lift the bucket holding both ends of the line. The bucket will weigh the same. You need the same amount of force to lift the bucket , even with the turning block. 

There is come additional force spent on the stretch of length of halyard...which is halyard creep. But its pretty small on a Viper.
[/quote]

But if you dead end the line to something, you can lift the bucket with half the force. First example doesn't take account of force *between* the block and the attachment point--trivial if attachment is at top of mast (as in a lock); non-trivial if it is a cleat at the bottom. Diagrams & rum will have to wait for Newport--we alas have to miss Charleston.  Except as an excuse for rum-drinking, it's moot for me--I don't like the locks I've seen, though they didn't work quite the way you describe, so maybe there are some ok ones.

We installed a horn cleat to replace the lower v-cleat, which seems to have solved the problem.  Not sure what size, but a small one fits fine. I did have to drill another hole--maybe even 2. I took the the fitting off the heel of the mast, then through bolted the cleat.  Sorry, I don't have access to the boat, so can't take a photo.

[Dan Tucker]

Dave,

I like the simplicity of the stock system and would replace the cleats if necessary.

Frequently.

My old boat #50 has an original batch carbon mast as old as yours, and is still on the two original cleats. YMMV, obviously.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Kevin Brown]

I'm not exactly sure what a horn cleat is but we may have implemented it.  We installed a rack that has several attachment points.  Then we went to pre-streched spectra with a loop that fits over one of the prongs in the rack.  The sytem makes it a little bit harder to initially hoist the main, but once it is up there is almost no creep.  An it is not going to come loose either.

I will try to remember to take a picture and post it after this coming weekend.

[Tim Carter]

I'm not exactly sure what a horn cleat is but we may have implemented it.  We installed a rack that has several attachment points.  Then we went to pre-streched spectra with a loop that fits over one of the prongs in the rack.  The sytem makes it a little bit harder to initially hoist the main, but once it is up there is almost no creep.  An it is not going to come loose either.

I will try to remember to take a picture and post it after this coming weekend.

Would that be 4mm spectra Kevin??   ;)

[Reid Smythe]

I'm not exactly sure what a horn cleat is but we may have implemented it.  We installed a rack that has several attachment points.  Then we went to pre-streched spectra with a loop that fits over one of the prongs in the rack.  The sytem makes it a little bit harder to initially hoist the main, but once it is up there is almost no creep.  An it is not going to come loose either.

I will try to remember to take a picture and post it after this coming weekend.

Horn cleat is the kind of cleat you see on most docks that boats tie up to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tied_cleat.jpg

[Jonathan Nye]

I'm not exactly sure what a horn cleat is but we may have implemented it.  We installed a rack that has several attachment points.  Then we went to pre-streched spectra with a loop that fits over one of the prongs in the rack.  The sytem makes it a little bit harder to initially hoist the main, but once it is up there is almost no creep.  An it is not going to come loose either.

I will try to remember to take a picture and post it after this coming weekend.

Would that be 4mm spectra Kevin??   ;)

And the tail (unloaded portion) is also 4mm?? ;) also

[Jon Stubbs]

Photos of a system we're experimenting with.

As I mentioned earlier, due to consistently sailing in stronger winds, we were having trouble with slipping jib halyards but we were also blowing up the turning block at the bottom of the mast and destroying the saddle it is attached to the mast with.

For the cost of some extra rope and a block - problem solved and the system doubles the purchase of the fine tunes.

Attach  a very small, bent over, saddle to the bottom bolt of the top mast, jib halyard block. In that saddle, tie a figure 8 knot in the jib halyard. The halyard goes from from the saddle through a high load block, attached to the top of the jib and back up through the top mast, jib halyard block and then down inside the mast and through the normal system, to the single cleat on the port foredeck.

[Dave Nickerson]

This is really interesting...

[Jeff Jones]

Dave, i agree (assuming you mean that in a positive way).  Jon, thank you for posting the pictures.  I was having trouble picturing this - it looks like a very nice solution.   

question ;  how long have you been using this?   No issues?    Is anyone else doing it over there?   If it doesn't present any problems before next years GM i'd like to see this offered as an option within the class rules.

J

This is really interesting...

[Dave Nickerson]

Absolutely.  Great idea

[Jay Harrell]

My boat came to me rigged that way from the previous owner, on both the main and jib.  But that was before the class rules.  The only problem I recall was dealing with the double-length halyard tails when the sails were up.