J/70 rolled by a Viper

Started by Brian Barmmer, December 03, 2012, 04:21:10 PM

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Brian Barmmer

RIP Viper #92 - My Next One Will Be Safety Orange
C9H13NO3

Peter Beardsley

Wish both teams had been in something closer to their respective "one design racing configurations".  The note from the LLSC site says the 70 smoked the Viper uphill, though in the video, the Viper is only sailing 2-up with what looks to be a light team, so that's not a huge surprise -- a 3-up Viper will also smoke a 2-up Viper uphill in more than 6 kts of wind. 

More importantly...Viper 47, come down to Florida this winter!  Short drive from Atlanta.  Great to see it out there. 
Viper 640 East Coast Regional VP / Class Governor
Viper 333 "Glory Days"
Formerly Viper 269 "Great Scott!", Viper 222 "Ghost Panda" and Viper 161 "Vicious Panda"

Tac Boston

Does not surprise me, I have heard from my peeps at lnyc that the U-20 is faster then J.

Reid Smythe

#3
Quote from: Peter Beardsley on December 03, 2012, 04:40:08 PM
Wish both teams had been in something closer to their respective "one design racing configurations".  The note from the LLSC site says the 70 smoked the Viper uphill, though in the video, the Viper is only sailing 2-up with what looks to be a light team, so that's not a huge surprise -- a 3-up Viper will also smoke a 2-up Viper uphill in more than 6 kts of wind.  
[...]  

So if you do find yourself in the middle of a race (so no rig adjustments) with a problem like #47 had upwind, what's the current rule of thumb (aside from hiking more and harder)?  More cunningham/GNAV/jib hal fine tune to de-power the sails? Control the heel with some periodic pinching?  Slight in-haul on the windward jib sheet?

Peter Beardsley

Quote from: Reid Smythe on December 04, 2012, 01:01:01 AM
So if you do find yourself in the middle of a race (so no rig adjustments) with a problem like #47 had upwind, what's the current rule of thumb (aside from hiking more and harder)?  More cunningham/GNAV/jib hal fine tune to de-power the sails? Control the heel with some periodic pinching?  Slight in-haul on the windward jib sheet?
All depends.  If you're talking about a situation where the rig is too loose and the wind has since come up and you're overpowered, the biggest issue usually is that the rig is sagging too much, so easing the main and freeing up the headstay only compounds the problem by sagging the jib more and hooking the leech.  It's a combination of hiking really hard, lots of GNAV, minimal mainsheet ease (no more than 6-8 inches probably), some jib sheet ease in the puffs (no windward sheeting though), some pinching, and then hoping the race ends as soon as possible so that you can tighten your uppers. 
Viper 640 East Coast Regional VP / Class Governor
Viper 333 "Glory Days"
Formerly Viper 269 "Great Scott!", Viper 222 "Ghost Panda" and Viper 161 "Vicious Panda"

Jeff Jones

#5
Pull on the GNAV as hard as you can, and then ask your buddy to help you pull it harder.   Helps if you have somewhere to put your beer while your doing this.  Dont forget to let it off a bit downwind

Cunningham on, outhaul hard.  let those back off downwind

Move the jib cars back as far as you can, and dont use the windward sheet to inhaul. we stop inhauling as soon as everyone is full hiking

jib halyard harder, but not too hard.  just take any wrinkles out

ease the mainsheet just a pinch, maybe a few inches.  not much.   I just like to match the jib lead  

pinch a little bit, hike hard.  Then, hike harder.  

We sail light most of the time (420ish?).  Never hurts to start with a bit more cap tension.    And if your racing PHRF can you not adjust the rig?   That's something i should probably know.

Go to a big regatta and stand around jackpot asking questions.   not only will it make you faster, it wont be long before you end up with a drink in your hand.  Watch the one everyone calls chuck..  or shuck..  Or something like that. He's sneaky   

If you find yourself on your ear a lot in heavy wind, justin scott can tell you how to get the boat back up quick.  He's become quite the expert.

Quote from: Peter Beardsley on December 04, 2012, 09:15:15 AM
Quote from: Reid Smythe on December 04, 2012, 01:01:01 AM
So if you do find yourself in the middle of a race (so no rig adjustments) with a problem like #47 had upwind, what's the current rule of thumb (aside from hiking more and harder)?  More cunningham/GNAV/jib hal fine tune to de-power the sails? Control the heel with some periodic pinching?  Slight in-haul on the windward jib sheet?
All depends.  If you're talking about a situation where the rig is too loose and the wind has since come up and you're overpowered, the biggest issue usually is that the rig is sagging too much, so easing the main and freeing up the headstay only compounds the problem by sagging the jib more and hooking the leech.  It's a combination of hiking really hard, lots of GNAV, minimal mainsheet ease (no more than 6-8 inches probably), some jib sheet ease in the puffs (no windward sheeting though), some pinching, and then hoping the race ends as soon as possible so that you can tighten your uppers.  

Dan Tucker

All really good advice from JJ. Particularly standing around Jackpot and uh, "talking". I don't inhaul at all unless it's flat water.

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Race it like you stole it.

Jeff Jones

Interesting, why on flat water only?  I like inhauling more when the water's lumpy.   We inhaul a bit and ease off the leward sheet just a pinch.  Gives the jib a nice round "punchy" shape.   

I'd really like to hear from one of the fast guys on this (somers, brad ect.) 


Quote from: Dan Tucker on December 04, 2012, 09:41:46 AM
All really good advice from JJ. Particularly standing around Jackpot and uh, "talking". I don't inhaul at all unless it's flat water.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Brad Boston

We like to inhaul when the breeze is between 6-12. Slot can afford to be a bit closed at this speed. In flat water we will inhaul keeping the foot the standard shape. May have to move lead aft a hole or two so the foot does not get to round. In chop maybe move the lead forward a hole so when we pull in the clew the foot rounds a bit. Then ease the sheet a little to make sure the leach is setting up nicely. (upper batten tell tail is flying 55% of the time).
Remember that when you are in these conditions it is really important to sit forward. Get the bow to track a little and the fat ass stern to quiet down..
If you ever feel like the boat is slow ease everything out a bit get speed up and sneak things in a bit again.
Brad

Reid Smythe

Quote from: Jeff Jones on December 04, 2012, 09:27:39 AM

We sail light most of the time (420ish?).  Never hurts to start with a bit more cap tension.    And if your racing PHRF can you not adjust the rig?   That's something i should probably know.


Out here one stipulation for sailing with a PHRF rating for a one-design boat is that you sail the boat per class rules (iirc).  Though I don't think anyone would care if it happened during a wed. night beercan...

Reid Smythe

Ok, so it sounds like the idea is to use the GNAV as a poor-man's rig tensioner, accepting that you lose twist at the top of the main for the benefit of flattening the jib.  Other than that it's move the drafts forward, flatten the bottoms and give the top of the jib plenty of twist.  Ideally, tighten the caps and/or get more meat on the rail.  That sound about right?

Brad Boston

when you put enough GNAV on the mast will bend so much that the top of the main falls off...(like a backstay). But you will need to keep some tension on the mainsheet to help control the sag. Like Peter said,ease the sheet only a couple of inches.
Does this make sense to you?

Jeff Jones

And correct me if i'm wrong brad -

Other than using the GNAV to bend the mast, the main purpose for pulling so hard is to get tension on the forestay.  The harder you pull the more you can let off on the mainsheet before your forestay starts to sag (to a certain extent which has never been more than about 3 or 4 inches for me)?

Depending on what sails your using you actually put more slack in the lowers as the breeze comes on while increasing cap tension.      This is correct at least on your sails, right Brad - which seem to have a deeper cut than Norths.   The norths are typically really flat and you have to use more lower tension to keep from overbending.     Because you can put so much bend in the viper mast, i prefer the deeper doyles as they seem to provide more flexiblitly. 


Jonathan Nye

Regarding not letting the main out more than a few inches, my opinion is that this is just as much about maintaining some positive helm as it is about maintaining headstay tension.

Justin Scott

If you are going to be lightweight upwind, there is nothing like a good helping of tension on the uppers. It wont cost you aught downwind where your light weight will be helping anyway. Upwind it gives you a lot of options to keep the boat moving fast.

If its a long beat to windward in PHRF, moving the cooler to windward helps for two reasons. Better weight placement. Easier access to beverages. Nobody should be sailing PHRF without refreshment.
Viper - Mambo Kings
Right Coast Refreshments Committee