Douse diagnosis (fouled retriever line)

[Peter Beardsley]

Have searched the forums and haven't found a thread that deals with this problem exactly, so if any Viper doctors out there want to take a stab at this situation, go for it:

Scene: ACCs, final race.  VP is coming in hot on the port layline having made a nice gain, but has 3 Vipers on starboard gybe coming in hot for the right hand gate.  There was enough pressure such that heating up, hiking, and taking sterns wasn't going to be a viable option, and in any case, we wanted to make a right hand turn to go left on the final beat.  So the answer was a suboptimal strategy of gybing in front and inside of the pack and doing a leeward douse in traffic without the option of bearing away, while going 10+ kts.  So as it was, the degree of difficulty on the douse was going to be high. 

This is not meant to be a thread though on how to do a perfect leeward douse -- there are plenty of those out there. 

Instead, on our gybe from port to starboard 5 boatlengths from the mark, the retriever line decides to stay on the starboard side of the sprit, fouling the sprit.  We notice it and quickly send the forward crew up to the bow to try to free it, but the combination of lack of experience/speed/lack of distance to the mark prevented us from being able to free the retriever.  We attempt the douse anyway, and naturally, the kite "retrieves" straight under the bow (which is where the retriever line will be aimed if it is on the wrong side of the sprit). 

This was the last race of the day, all other douses had been fine so we know it wasn't rigged wrong.  The questions are:

1. Any theories as to how the retriever line ended up on the wrong side of the sprit?

2. Any thoughts on what to do the next time this happens? 

It was a bit frustrating going from 5th to 25th on that maneuver, though we're happy that the kite wasn't torn up.  Working thoughts over here are something like this:
For #1, maybe the retriever line is just too long, got slack in the gybe and had room to play -- would a more snug retriever line (provided that it doesn't hurt the shape of the kite) help?  And for #2, all we have so far is to just do a leeward douse into the cockpit (which in retrospect would have been perfect given the pending upwind finish, but we just didn't think of it fast enough). 

I know this has happened at least once crewing for Justin before, but I don't think I knew enough at the time to remember what the fix was, but I'd really like to know how it happened in the first place so that we can prevent it from happening again.

PB

[Paul Zimmerman]

The retrieval line is too long. When you gybe it will snap itself under the pole if too long. Too set the correct length, fly the short and pull out the retrieval line after so the line just kisses the water while on stbd gybe.  Note the excess line and them cut that distance off from the line at the head of the sail.

[Justin Scott]

1. Do you have shockcord on the bow to prevent retreival line catching round the bow and sprit?

2. You can install a small jamb cleat just aft of back of spin sock to control how much retreival line is showing. I eventually removed mine because (a)  I find with newer gybe techniques Im not getting a problem and (b) I didnt position it very well and retrieval line jambing in cleat during a hoist caused my crew to yell at each other (while I surreptitiously fixed the problem I caused)

[Peter Beardsley]

Thanks Paul.  I figured it was something like that.  We've taken 13 feet off the retriever line already, probably another 5 to go -- I was waiting until we had a big breeze day to note how much slack we needed when the kite was drawing really hard -- still haven't had the boat out in more than 15 kts.  

Next question: let's say for some reason this happens to us again in the future.  Any recommended fixes on the water?  Is it just a question of the forward crew scurrying up there to see if they can get the retriever off the sprit?  Should you retract the sprit to see if it frees itself while sailing deep?  Just douse into the cockpit and deal with it upwind so that you're ready for the next hoist?  Other?  

Justin: we don't have shockcord on there yet, but it is on our to-do list.  I'm not sure that would have solved the problem in this case though -- shockcord only prevents lines from catching on the bow.  If the retriever works its way onto the other side of the sprit forward of the bow, I do not see how shockcord would help.  The clam cleat sounds interesting but also sounds like it could cause as many problems as it solves. 

[Drew Harper]

We sail a very long retrieval line for tossing over the side to keep it running clear on sets and douses....also allows it to get out when sailing in the light stuff deep.

We don't use the bungle thinghy as I've sailed on a couple of boats where it has sucked into the pole hole at inopportune times making for interesting mark roundings.

We haven't had the retrieval line issue but then we do skiff gybes from 9-25+ TWS and late-main roll gybes in anything under that.

[Justin Scott]

We sail a very long retrieval line for tossing over the side to keep it running clear on sets and douses....also allows it to get out when sailing in the light stuff deep.

We don't use the bungle thinghy as I've sailed on a couple of boats where it has sucked into the pole hole at inopportune times making for interesting mark roundings.

We haven't had the retrieval line issue but then we do skiff gybes from 9-25+ TWS and late-main roll gybes in anything under that.

Common fault of some Viper teams is too short retreival line....discernable by Spinnakers with camel toe effect, and dowse with middleman hunched in cockpit ineffectively pulling down spinnaker hand over hand.

Bungie is very effective. To stop it sucking in pole hole, either attach under bow rather than under pole..or even better, install a small pad eye under pole hole.

Gybe techniques described above by Drew are very effective.

Jamb cleat would work well if positioned effectively away from where the line runns during a hoist.

Dowse into cockpit wont work because tack line is not long enough

[Matt Sole]

I really still have no idea how VP got the retrieval line caught. I have read Peters post several times and do not understand how a bit of rope tied at both ends got caught around the sprit when it has worked properly all day.

Before I used the bungee, I got the retrieval line caught under the bow lip often enough to be annoying.

I think I use thicker bungee than most from what I saw recently in Newport. Approximately 5mm compared to 2-3mm. Also instead of tying the two end to the forestay, I tied a clovehitch in the middle of the bungee at the top of the swage and have the knot sitting under the sprit moulding, wrapped in tape. Sometimes it flips forward onto the sprit its self but because of the larger diameter and the knot being there it would stop the issues Drew mentioned.

[Peter Beardsley]

I really still have no idea how VP got the retrieval line caught. I have read Peters post several times and do not understand how a bit of rope tied at both ends got caught around the sprit when it has worked properly all day.

Admittedly, I only saw the aftermath -- I wish I saw it as it happened.  But best I can tell, it went down something like this:

- Port gybe, so retriever line is coming out over the starboard side of the bow and is tied to the inside part of the kite (outside of the kite on starboard gybe, inside of the kite on port gybe). 

- There was too much slack in the system, and somehow on the gybe from port to starboard, the retriever line instead of whipping straight across the deck of the boat, took the forward route and looped around the end of the sprit.

- However, the kite kept going and filled on starboard gybe, with the retriever line now taking the following path:
1. from mouth to starboard side of sprit
2. underneath starboard side of sprit to kite

You'd think that all that would be needed would be to send someone forward to flip the retriever line off the sprit, but when you're planing (so that the kite and retriever are loaded up) and only have a couple of boatlengths until the douse, you get 5 seconds or less to try, and if you can't and you decide to douse anyway, the kite will follow the path of the retriever -- underneath the sprit, and then under the bow. 

[Matt Sole]

So basically as you gybed, a loop of retrieval line caught around the end of the sprit. Sounds very unlucky to me.
Even though it has been a long time since it happened to me that the retrieval line got caught under the bow lip, whenever we go for a windward take down I get a bit OCD about making sure the retrieval line is completely clear.

[Peter Beardsley]

So basically as you gybed, a loop of retrieval line caught around the end of the sprit. Sounds very unlucky to me.

That is what happened.  I try to avoid putting myself in a position for future unlucky moments -- sometimes it's bad luck, but when you're new to the boat, the assumption is that there's a lot to learn and I definitely don't want to go from 5th to last again in a big fleet -- takes a lot of effort to get into a good position, not much effort to go flying into the back of the pack.

[Dan Tucker]

in a big fleet -- takes a lot of effort to get into a good position, not much effort to go flying into the back of the pack.

So true, so true. I know it all too well!

[Garrett Johns]

in a big fleet -- takes a lot of effort to get into a good position, not much effort to go flying into the back of the pack.

I seem to have a different problem. Anyone know how to fly from the back of the pack to the front? :)

[Drew Harper]

That's easy Garrett...just read the shifts flawlessly, make no mistakes at the corners, keep at the leading edge of phase and you are there.

Oh yeah, having blazing boat speed is helpful ;-)

Find a local boat and do a few days of tune sailing. Catalog your settings, debrief and go back out. You'll be amazed at the results. Helps if you can find a coach to get give you feedback and run the sessions.

[Garrett Johns]

LMAO....Drew, that is easy. Why didn't I think of that!!

[Scott Ellis]

That's easy Garrett...just read the shifts flawlessly, make no mistakes at the corners, keep at the leading edge of phase and you are there.

Oh yeah, having blazing boat speed is helpful ;-)

Find a local boat and do a few days of tune sailing. Catalog your settings, debrief and go back out. You'll be amazed at the results. Helps if you can find a coach to get give you feedback and run the sessions.

Hmmmmm if only You could find a local boat Garrett ...........